Almost done and feeling so much worse!

[Mackle]

I'm on day 25 and I feel terrible. My headaches have returned with a vengeance, I'm tired all the time, my anxiety is through the roof, I've lost my appetite entirely, and I've lost all motivation to get things done (which is a huge problem because I'm self-employed). I can't believe that I'm feeling this awful when I'm so close to day 30. I was supposed to start feeling the "tiger blood" at least a week ago. I didn't have these issues before I started this round.

I've tracked a couple days of my calorie intake just to be sure that my problems aren't being caused by insufficient calorie intake. Despite my lack of appetite, I've been able to force myself to eat about 2200 calories per day, which has been enough to maintain my weight. In a normal day, I usually have 4-6 servings of fruit and 6-10 servings of vegetables. My macronutrient breakdown is about 20% protein, 40% fat, and 40% carbohydrates.

Other info that might be helpful:

• This is my second round of Whole 30. I did one 6 months ago and felt so amazing afterwards that I decided I want to do it twice per year to keep myself on track. 
• I have a neurological condition that required surgery 5 years ago. I've had almost no symptoms since then.
• I kept up with clean eating after my first round of Whole 30, but I reintroduced sprouted wheat bread and became less strict with occasionally eating out (once per month maximum). 
• I exercise 5 times per week: HIIT/strength training combo workouts M/W/F, light recovery cardio or yoga T/Th. This is more exercise than I did during my first round.
• I'm a 21 year old female, 5'3 and 115 lbs. I've stayed the same weight since I started, which is good because weight loss is not a goal of mine.
• I've practiced intermittent fasting for over a year now. I use the LeanGains 16/8 protocol. 
• Before starting this round my diet was not great because I had been on the road for 9 days. Lots of sugar from sweetened dried fruit in trail mix, not enough fruits or veggies, and occasional fast food. 

Has anyone else experienced this? Does anyone have any idea about what might be causing it or how to make it better?

[SugarcubeOD]

42 minutes ago, Mackle said:

I'm on day 25 and I feel terrible. My headaches have returned with a vengeance, I'm tired all the time, my anxiety is through the roof, I've lost my appetite entirely, and I've lost all motivation to get things done (which is a huge problem because I'm self-employed). I can't believe that I'm feeling this awful when I'm so close to day 30. I was supposed to start feeling the "tiger blood" at least a week ago. I didn't have these issues before I started this round.

I've tracked a couple days of my calorie intake just to be sure that my problems aren't being caused by insufficient calorie intake. Despite my lack of appetite, I've been able to force myself to eat about 2200 calories per day, which has been enough to maintain my weight. In a normal day, I usually have 4-6 servings of fruit and 6-10 servings of vegetables. My macronutrient breakdown is about 20% protein, 40% fat, and 40% carbohydrates.

Other info that might be helpful:

• This is my second round of Whole 30. I did one 6 months ago and felt so amazing afterwards that I decided I want to do it twice per year to keep myself on track. 
• I have a neurological condition that required surgery 5 years ago. I've had almost no symptoms since then.
• I kept up with clean eating after my first round of Whole 30, but I reintroduced sprouted wheat bread and became less strict with occasionally eating out (once per month maximum). 
• I exercise 5 times per week: HIIT/strength training combo workouts M/W/F, light recovery cardio or yoga T/Th. This is more exercise than I did during my first round.
• I'm a 21 year old female, 5'3 and 115 lbs. I've stayed the same weight since I started, which is good because weight loss is not a goal of mine.
• I've practiced intermittent fasting for over a year now. I use the LeanGains 16/8 protocol. 
• Before starting this round my diet was not great because I had been on the road for 9 days. Lots of sugar from sweetened dried fruit in trail mix, not enough fruits or veggies, and occasional fast food. 

Has anyone else experienced this? Does anyone have any idea about what might be causing it or how to make it better?

Sorry you're not feeling well.  In order for us to help troubleshoot, we would need to know what you've been eating - as in specific meals including portion sizes, specific veggies, fruit, fat and protein... macronutrient breakdown tells us nothing, but I will comment that 4-6 servings of fruit a day is a LOT... are you also eating template meals in addition to the fruit or is the fruit pushing more nutrient dense food off your plate?  Do you do pre and post workout meals?

It's totally possible that your symptoms ARE from not eating enough but calories are not a great metric for determining that... you can eat 2200 calories worth of donuts a day (not saying you do), or you can eat 2200 calories of meat and vegetables and healthy fats... which one do you think would make you feel better?  They're still 2200 calories each, which is why it's not a great way to judge...

[Mackle]

I eat fruit hour or so before I work out to increase muscle and liver glycogen after my 16 hour fast in order to get through the workout properly. I eat a banana afterwords to get carbohydrates back into my system. The sugar content is necessary for the intensity of my training. I double up on fruit with lunch if my workout has been over an hour and a half, which easily explains my higher fruit intake. It is not taking the place of any foods with higher nutrient density.

Here's an example of what I eat (this is what I had yesterday, which was one of my higher intensity training days):

Pre-workout: a peach and a small handful of almonds

Lunch, immediately post workout: 1 banana, 4 organic eggs cooked with ghee, 4 cups of spinach, 1 cup of spaghetti squash, 2 tbsp homemade olive oil dressing, 15-ish baby carrots.

Dinner: shepherd's pie - 1.5 cups meat filling (made from turkey/organic 85-15 ground beef/organic lamb, carrots, lots of kale, and onion) and 1 cup topping (mashed potato/mashed cauliflower in equal parts with added full fat organic coconut milk to make it creamier). 3 cups of broccoli with 1 tsp ghee, and 2 cups of spinach with 1tbsp of olive oil dressing, 1/2 large sweet potato, 1 apple. 

Portion sizes are estimates because I didn't measure my food yesterday.

[SugarcubeOD]

Okay so you only eat two meals a day?  All of our coaching advice is going to be about eating three meals a day spaced 4-5 hours apart.  If you're doing intermittent fasting, then that's something that we're not really able to help with as it's against the recommendations of the program.

Eating fruit before a workout is going to give your body easy fuel to burn, rather than having your body burn fat.  Fruit will preferentially restore liver glycogen after a workout instead of muscle glycogen...

 

[Mackle]

The fruit that I'm eating isn't enough to sustain an 1hr+ for a workout so I easily get back into using fat for fuel during any given workout, and the point of the intermittent fasting to to train your body to become more efficient at burning fat for fuel anyways. 

The IF or pre-workout meal has not changed in 1yr+, so it's unrelated to my current symptoms.

[SugarcubeOD]

2 minutes ago, Mackle said:

The fruit that I'm eating isn't enough to sustain an 1hr+ for a workout so I easily get back into using fat for fuel during any given workout, and the point of the intermittent fasting to to train your body to become more efficient at burning fat for fuel anyways. 

The IF or pre-workout meal has not changed in 1yr+, so it's unrelated to my current symptoms.

Okay.  Our mandate is to work with people on composing their meals, eating to the template, following the meal timing recommendations and helping people troubleshoot things like headaches, bloating, crankines etc... .  

If you're sure your headaches are not related to the meal timing and these are foods you've eaten in the past in the same quantities, same meal timing, same workouts etc... then maybe the next step is to go to the doctor and see if anything is going on?  There's nothing that stands out in your meals to me as potentially causing problems except for the timing, the fruit heaviness of it and what is probably a lack of fat.  

[Mackle]

In the rules vs. recommendations article it says that it makes sense to eat more fruit during the summer ("so your intake in August may look like five servings a day, and just one or two in January"). So is what I'm eating not an acceptable amount of fruit given my activity level, the fruit season, and my comparative amount of vegetables? I'd like to understand as much as I can.

[ladyshanny]

My guess, @Mackle is that you are currently stuck in a no-man's land. The fruit you're eating is allowing your body to access readily available energy which inhibits fat adaptation. Pre-fueling and post-fueling with fruit doesn't give your body any chance to properly access fat stores. Whether you've been doing it successfully for a year or not, I suspect that in the framework of the Whole30 you either need to drop it temporarily or do some serious tweaking with your meals. The fact that you are only eating 2 meals means you're missing the nutrition of the third meal. Intermittent fasting is not recommended but if you are going to do it, the idea is to eat an entire day's worth of food in the feeding window. It's not an excuse to cut out an entire meal. 

May I ask why you do IF? The "tiger blood" that we refer to comes directly from balancing your hormones. It is exceedingly difficult to balance those hormones if you are missing nutrition and dragging out the fasting period. It is completely possible that "what worked" for you prior to Whole30 isn't going to work now. Would you be willing to set aside what you've always done and try something else? Because if not, unfortunately you're just cramming Whole30 into an old framework. Might not be suitable together.

[Mackle]

I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to take the time to help me understand your objections to intermittent fasting. 

Here's a blurb from my favorite article about it (https://authoritynutrition.com/intermittent-fasting-guide/). I love this article because it cites the results from several well-designed studies and the author has a bachelor's degree in medicine, plus most of the editors and contributors on the cite have PhDs in nutrition.

How Intermittent Fasting Affects Your Cells and Hormones

When you fast, several things happen in your body on the cellular and molecular level.

For example, your body changes hormone levels to make stored body fat more accessible.

Your cells also initiate important repair processes, and change the expression of genes.

Here are some changes that occur in your body when you fast:

• Human Growth Hormone (HGH): The levels of growth hormone skyrocket, increasing as much as 5-fold. This has benefits for fat loss and muscle gain, to name a few (4, 5, 6, 7).
• Insulin: Insulin sensitivity improves and levels of insulin drop dramatically. Lower insulin levels make stored body fat more accessible (8).
• Cellular repair: When fasted, your cells initiate cellular repair processes. This includes autophagy, where cells digest and remove old and dysfunctional proteins that build up inside cells (9, 10)
• Gene expression: There are changes in the function of genes related to longevity and protection against disease (11, 12).

These changes in hormone levels, cell function and gene expression are responsible for the health benefits of intermittent fasting.

Bottom Line: When you fast, human growth hormone levels go up and insulin levels go down. Your body’s cells also change the expression of genes and initiate important cellular repair processes.

 

 

I'd be interested to hear what you guys think of this. I'm working on a degree in nutrition, so I understand that the field is rapidly changing and growing and new discoveries are made all the time. I'm absolutely open to changing my opinion, I would just like to understand why you disagree.

[ladyshanny]

Hmmm...forgive me if my response sounds....erm....aggressive. First, next to NO studies (if any at all that discuss female specific needs/biology) have ever been conducted on women and IF. They are all very much geared to a specific subset of male (young, healthy, athletic). There are limited (or none) studies that examine how IF affects female specific hormones. 

Second, on a personal note, I did IF for many months. And man, my body was absolutely rockin'. Like..........best shape of my life, ever! I lost the ability to ovulate, my hair fell out, I had rampant migraines, my anxiety went through the roof, I was highly irritable, my sleep was crap and my skin looked......old. But man, my ass looked amazing.  

Here's the article we point people to linked below. And you know what? It's not meant to be a statement that there are no women ever that can benefit from IF. Sure there are. There are outliers in every category in life. But my personal experience and the anecdotal information I've received from dozens if not hundreds of conversations here on this forum over the years are that most women do not benefit from IF. It's disruptive and damaging, especially for anyone with underlying health conditions, anyone that is trying to conceive or could become pregnant, anyone that already has hormonal balance issues. We simply recommend that if you are going to come to the Whole30, you give both the rules and recommendations a shot and see how you do. It's all an experiment and the only way to really know if one way or another works for you..........is to try it before hacking/tweaking it. 

http://paleoforwomen.com/shattering-the-myth-of-fasting-for-women-a-review-of-female-specific-responses-to-fasting-in-the-literature/

Edited to add: even if I didn't strongly disagree with IF for most women, I still stand by the fact that it's not meant to be a way/reason to restrict your calories. If you're going to do it, you still need the minimum amount of nutrition for basic human function which is not less than 3 template meals each day. Whether you stretch your fasting window or not, you still need those three meals + pre and post workout food.

[Mackle]

Thanks for the article, it's helpful! I'll be keeping an eye on the research to see if they ever do more studies with women and IF. It's worked great for me so far and I never experienced any hunger issues, mental fog, acne, or anything like that. That being said, I haven't ovulated in over 9 years (birth control to prevent ovarian cysts), so not super easy for me to figure out if it's messing with me hormonally. I'll start another 30 days tomorrow adding breakfast back in and see if that makes a difference for me. I still find it odd that I'm having these symptoms starting after over a year of eating this way, though...any thoughts on why that might happen? Especially since I had no problems with it during my first Whole 30?

And I have a few more questions.

• In the meal planning template, it says that you should eat 15-75 minutes pre-workout, even making a point to say that something is better than nothing. Is that still the recommendation or should I ignore that as per your suggestion?
• And, again, about fruit. In the rules vs. recommendations article it says that it makes sense to eat more fruit during the summer ("so your intake in August may look like five servings a day, and just one or two in January"). So is what I'm eating not an acceptable amount of fruit given my activity level, the fruit season, and my comparative amount of vegetables? 
• Also...any suggestions about how to get an appetite to eat breakfast?

 

[ladyshanny]

That lack of appetite for food first thing in the morning (and even more telling, if you could eat food in the morning but only if it's something sweet) is a high sign that you are not in hormonal balance. Make food that sounds interesting and pallitable to you. Chicken salad on a sweet potato, soup, omelette, salmon cakes. Whatever it is that you think you could get through. And then just keep trying. Make the food, eat as much as you can, take it with you to eat again as soon as you are able. It gets easier!

Yes, people eat more fruit in the summer. No, I'm not going to answer how much is the right amount for you. It's arbitrary. For me "more" is a handful of blueberries and a kiwi every other day because we eat maybe one piece of fruit a week in the non-summer months. For you, "more" could be more. Experiment. See how you feel with less. 

Depending on when your first Whole30 was, remember that you are older than you were and that nothing ever stays the same. In my case, IF worked great for me...........until it didn't and everything went hella sideways. The headaches, anxiety, lack of energy, lack of appetite........I'm sorry.........they are all significant signs that you are not eating enough. 

[ladyshanny]

20 minutes ago, Mackle said:

 

• In the meal planning template, it says that you should eat 15-75 minutes pre-workout, even making a point to say that something is better than nothing. Is that still the recommendation or should I ignore that as per your suggestion?

 

I don't recall telling you to ignore the 15-75 minute pre-workout recommendation, just to try changing the composition. And yes, anything is better than nothing. But you can do better than that. You are specifically seeking out fruits for pre and post workout. Try specifically seeking out the recommended protein and fat pre workout and lean protein and starchy veggie post workout. If "anything is better than nothing" is where you want to hang out, that's fine. But something tells me that you might want better results than "this'll do in a pinch".  

[Mackle]

Alright, I'll give it a try! I've been doing the fruit based on a recommendation from one of my professors, but I'll try switching it up and see how that works for me. 

What about my overall fruit intake level? And do you have any suggestions about how to get an appetite in the morning? 

[SugarcubeOD]

2 minutes ago, Mackle said:

Alright, I'll give it a try! I've been doing the fruit based on a recommendation from one of my professors, but I'll try switching it up and see how that works for me. 

What about my overall fruit intake level? And do you have any suggestions about how to get an appetite in the morning? 

You might have missed the post before her talking about the pre and post workout recommendations, but she's talked about the morning appetite and the fruit intake... scroll up

[Mackle]

Yep, totally missed that entire post! Just seeing it for the first time right now. My bad!

[Eye of the Tiger]

19 hours ago, ladyshanny said:

I don't recall telling you to ignore the 15-75 minute pre-workout recommendation, just to try changing the composition. And yes, anything is better than nothing. But you can do better than that. You are specifically seeking out fruits for pre and post workout. Try specifically seeking out the recommended protein and fat pre workout and lean protein and starchy veggie post workout. If "anything is better than nothing" is where you want to hang out, that's fine. But something tells me that you might want better results than "this'll do in a pinch".  

How many hours without food is considered IF?  I'm not currently doing a round of w30, but my FF is very close to w30.  I have to workout early, first thing in the morning.  I don't eat anything before because it makes me sick, and I don't have time to wait 60-75 min.  I'm not going to sacrifice sleep.  And per directions from my functional practitioner I eat a snack consisting of a lot of healthy fat about an hour before sleep (to combat insomnia), along with a compliant magnesium supplement.  I have no problems working out in the mornings, and it hasn't even been 12 hours since my healthy fat snack and when I start working out at about 5 am.  It works for me.  But I also have become fat adapted, and I limit my fruit servings to 2-3 servings. 

[ladyshanny]

Not eating before a morning workout is fine. You're not really intentionally fasting/creating a limited eating window. You can also eat within 15 minutes of the workout if you can find something palatable. There is some benefit to working out fasted. The two may seem similar but it's not the same thing as forcing yourself to maintain an eating window. If you woke up hungry and wanted to eat a chicken thigh before your workout and felt ok doing it, then you would, yes?