ThyPeace

So I've been through my 3 Whole30s, and I now live a Whole30-ish daily life.  Love it, feel great, want to continue doing it.  Since last summer, I've been very slowly building my body back up from completely trashed to something approaching functional.  In September, I very cautiously ran staggered my first 100 steps.  And then walked a while, and then tried it again.  I've worked up to the point where I can alternate running and walking for 3 miles in about 38 minutes.  So not fast.  And also more than I have ever run before in my 48 years of wandering around this planet.  I was a swimmer and biker as a kid and absolutely despised running.  (This may have had to do with being the youngest and smallest kid in my class.)
 
So here I am, several months later.  I can make the big loop around the campus near me and not be dying by the time I return.  I've learned that getting up at 5:45am and going outside is actually awesome, particularly on a crystal clear winter morning when the stars are out.  
 
I don't think I'm doing anything too crazy.  I'm trying to take care of my body -- and I know from old swimming injuries that even the "gentlest" of sports can really create havoc.  I really don't want to end up with a significant injury, and I'm starting to notice some aches and pains.  The inner side of my left foot hurts, for example.  I think that's from the new shoes I bought, which seem to fit my feet differently than the old ones.  My calves ... well no, whatever is below the calves, just above the ankles... ache, which all appears to be muscle stuff that I remember from when I first started trying to do this and the muscles just weren't there.  Not worried about that part.  More worrisome, though, is that my back aches.  Not just muscle aches, but pain that I recognize as "back is not stable and trying very hard to stay stable."  I have previously herniated a disc, so know what that feels like.  I am sure that means I'm doing something wrong.  What I don't know is what I'm doing wrong or how to change it.
 
So....... how do I learn to run in a way that won't hurt?  Speed isn't my first goal, nor is endurance.  My first goal is to be able to run when I'm 100 years old.  After that, I'll learn to run a long way.  After that, if there is improvement to be had, I'll run faster.  I've been reading a few books -- Jeff Galloway's run-walk-run method really helped me figure some things out, and made it possible to go from 2 miles a day to 3 miles a day.  I just started reading something called The non-runner's guide to marathon training, which has a fascinating title if nothing else.  And I read Born to Run because it was highly rated on Amazon, and I have to say was a good read.
 
I am also quite shy about this, and tend to prefer research things myself to showing up at a gym or training session.  Because, you know, gym-class humiliation as a kid.  
 
Thanks for any input folks may have!
 
ThyPeace, would never have said this, but actually really loves her sorta-running workouts.

You should look into "Thinner, Leaner Stronger "by Mike Matthews. My feel for you after reading your post is that your diet is probably fine. Mike's book talks a lot about diet and macros but I think you may benefit from the weight program alone. I have been following his 5 day split for 2 years. I hit a plateau and just recently have been making gains again after starting whole30. His philosophy is HEAVY compound lifting preferably 5x a week with HIIT- like workouts. Check it out. You may just need to shake up the gym routine. You can get his book on amazon.

Learn from me - don't overdo it with sugar during the reintroduction phase, or post W30 eating. Because you can lose your hard earned fat adaption, and that's what happened to me. So now, 8 days into my 2nd W30, my legs are burning and I'm dreading my run tomorrow. And there is NO WAY I'd give in and eat carbs or sugar, because I KNOW that at some point, my body will adapt again.  And I never want to have to go through this again, so I will be far more judicious in my sweets consumption.
That is all.
 

Hey all! I'm also marathon training. I'll be honest I have finished the Whole30 but decided to keep going after a week off. So I've reset.
I did a long run of 12 this morning at a 9:33 pace. This is pretty good for me seeing as I am 11 months out from having a baby.
For pre run breakfast it's either 2 eggs with some sweet potato, apple, onion hash or a banana with almond butter.
During my run I stop for 30 seconds or so and drink water (I mix in a little coconut water before for added electrolytes) eat a date and 5-6 salted dry roasted almonds. Half way through my run I will have half or a whole larabar.
Post run I have 2 or 3 eggs, spinach sautéed with a tomato or some more hash. 
My body feels good, I feel fueled and hydrated, and my energy is good throughout my run. 
 
Hope this helps!
 

The places where I'd watch carefully are after your longest runs of the week, when you need to make sure you have had enough carbs to rebuild your glycogen stores.  If you've done this three times before, I am sure you know more than I do about dragging around with no energy because you have no energy!  Lots of folks will say that becoming fat adapted means that you still have to go through that, to which I say phooey.  You can Whole30 and still get enough carbs to do distance training.  It does take thought, though.  Sweet potatoes and other root vegetables are good friends.  
I'd also make sure that you have a steady stream of protein at every meal.  It's part of the template, and it's another area where, as a long distance runner, you may find that the change in diet makes a difference.  Not enough protein will make your body repair itself more slowly, leading to a different kind of "I can't function" than the above glycogen mess.
And if this is your first time without gels and electrolytes, do make sure to try it all out as soon as you can.  Dates rolled in salt and potassium chloride if you are a salty sweater, for example, can really be good to know about long before the race itself.
ThyPeace, and now I am completely out of knowledge about fueling and hydrating for distances.  

This is a problem I wouldn't mind having, I must admit.  More seriously, if you feel good and your performance stays the same or better, I wouldn't worry about it.  If you notice that you have lost more weight than you wanted to or your performance starts to suffer, then I'd look more closely.
ThyPeace, if your body says it has enough fuel, it's okay to believe it.
 

Don't give up!  And DO listen to your body.  Going from gels and beans to anything else is HARD.  So drink up, and yes, definitely have good fuel.  You might try dates -- they're almost as pure a sugar as the beans and gels.  And check your electrolytes -- do you need salt or potassium or magnesium?  And get some sleep because, well, sleep is always good for what ails you.
If you keep feeling awful, consider seeing a doc.  For now, though, treat yourself well.  The last thing you want (this I know all too well) is to get injured from pushing when you shouldn't.
ThyPeace, injured.

Thanks to your advice, I switched up my nutrition on my cardio session this morning. I'm feeling much better this afternoon!
Here's what I did:
Few bites of baked chicken 15 minutes before.  Coconut water during workout.  2 dates rolled in Himalaya salt and one pouch of sweet potato/squash baby food during workout. Immediately following: few more bites of baked chicken and butternut squash Then a regular breakfast about an hour later. 

Hi again,
I wanted to check back in to report that here on Day 29 and I've been feeling great. I turned the corner working out and have set a few PRs, which is really exciting. My energy has been great.  @WholeRunner Do you mind if I call on your Ragnar experience? My Ragnar (Cape Cod, my second one there) is coming up at the end of next week and even though I'll be done with my Whole30, I've been feeling so great that I plan to more or less stay on it. Do you have advice about what to eat between runs? Normally I'd have bagels and peanut butter, sliced turkey, granola bars, Gu.
 
Thanks for your advice!
 

Thanks for the visual, Kirkor!  I try hard to run like the first guy, and still run like the second guy in many ways, I'm sure.  
 
That said, I want to share a personal milestone.  Today, for the first time, I ran THE WHOLE WAY.  Now, this was only 2.75 miles.  But even when I was a fat kid in high school and had to run the mile, I ended up walking a lot of it.  I have never in my life considered that I might run continuously for more than 30 minutes, which is what I did.  32 minutes, 5 seconds, to be exact.  
 
I had set out to do my usual 2.15 morning miles, which I have been doing for much of the last two months as a "short" day.  After I ran that without a break to walk -- and it surprised the heck out of me that I did! -- I still had ten minutes left in my half hour.  So I went ahead and continued running around our "block."   That's another 0.6 miles, and there you have it!  32 minutes, 2.75 miles, and I feel so completely awesome that I want to go out and run some more.  
 
And in fact, when I got home, I felt as though I could have run more.  My feet are a little sore, yes, and the other spots that tend to get tired first were just starting to let me know that they were tired, but I think I could have gone another mile.
 
Woohoo!  
 
ThyPeace, going to be totally chipper for the rest of the day.

 
Thanks, MadscienceM.  I don't think I kicked Butt, but I accomplished some things.  First, I finished!!  And second, I RAN THE WHOLE WAY!  I'm very happy with both.  There was a woman just a little ahead of me who kept a steady pace that I thought I could keep.  I could have passed her toward the beginning, but decided not to.  That was a good choice, because she kept that very steady pace long after I wanted to do something -- anything! -- else.  But she just kept going at her steady pace, and I did my best to keep up with her.  That worked until about mile 4, when my stomach started bothering me and she just kept running. 
So did I, just slower.  And somewhere around the 5th mile or a bit later, she really picked up the pace and ended up quite a long way ahead of me.  That's okay.  I. Just. Kept. Running.  In the end, it took me 1:07, so a pace of ... 10:47.  Huh.  I hadn't calculated it until just now.  That's pretty good.  (For me.)  No wonder they call it a PR course.  And it was really a nice course.  Flat or downhill most of the way, and because it's on a major road, it was beautifully lacking in side tilts and other things that hurt my various body parts.  By the end, though, my right hip was really aching.  And did I mention my stomach?  Sigh.  My first stop was the port-a-potties.  Next time a race starts at that particular time, maybe I need to remember to have coffee 90 minutes before that.  That usually moves things along relatively well for me.  Heck, before a race I could even try some regular coffee, rather than the decaf I usually drink.  (My family is hypersensitive to caffeine.  We usually don't drink regular coffee.  I learned the hard way in grad school when I was awake for three days after finals ended...)
Anyway, the race had good and bad points, and there are several things I want to work on to improve.  Mostly, I want to keep getting healthier at running.  By which I mean that I want to improve my form so that I can go longer before it starts to hurt.
DH also ended up running the race even with his sore foot.  He was debating even yesterday about whether he was going to run.  And this morning he was debating about whether he was going to stick with me and go slow, or strike out on his own.  I knew what would happen once he started running, though, and sure enough, he struck out ahead of me and just kept going.  Several months ago when we signed up for this race, his goal was to run it in an hour.  Today, once he left me, he passed the 1:05 pacer fairly quickly and soon started looking for the 1:00 pacer.  (I passed the 1:10 pacer and no one else, of course.)  He ended up finishing in 1:00:04.  And he also finished in a good bit of pain from his heel and Achilles tendon.  We got some ice from the med tent and he iced it on the train ride back to the start and also in the car on the way home.  And then he dumped his foot in a bucket of ice before taking a shower.  There was more ice, Aleve, and a bike ride to try to ease the pain, as well.  He found out last weekend that the bike ride helped a lot.  I don't know if it'll help the same day as a race; we'll find that out tomorrow, I suppose.  I hope he's not in too much pain.
Next weekend I'll have a regular jog in the part, and then the following weekend there is an 8K race less than a mile from my house.  I'll probably do that one just for the fun of it, even though it's not really long enough for my Sunday runs. 
And...the lady I followed for so long today was wearing a shirt that said something like "If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right." There was a 13.1 on the tail. 
ThyPeace, it makes me think about half marathons.  I think I could do one.  And the one that people have recommended to me ends about a mile from my house.  I have run parts of the course already in my usual weekly runs.  Hmmmm.
 
 
 

Hi PARyan --
Thanks for posting this!  I think it's an interesting question.  
I was never a fully competitive swimmer either, unless you want to count 8th grade swim team.  I was a synchronized swimmer in college, and a life guard and swimming instructor.  On top of all that, I'm far from a Whole30 expert.  Nonetheless, here are a couple of thoughts:
- 3000 meters is a good solid workout; far more intense than most people who are non-swimmers would realize.  I think you may not be getting enough food, based on what you said.  Glad you added potato/starch, and I think you should also add more protein.  You might want to add some vegetables to your breakfast, rather than fruit.  Some people find that the fruit isn't so helpful, and the hardcore Whole30ers will tell you that it encourages your body to make the wrong kind of glycogen (which is stored in your liver rather than in your muscles).  
- How's the sleep?  If you're under 7.5 hours a night, try dialing it up to at least that and preferably more.
- Make sure you are salting your food and eating lots of veggies to get your potassium.  And hydrate.  You sweat a ton when you swim, even if you don't notice it.  And at least for me, my body seems to process tons of pee while I'm swimming!  (TMI, I know...)
- Since you're doing masters swimming, does the program also include weights or strength training?  If so, make sure you factor that into your plans.
Good luck with the swims!  I miss that form of exercise quite often, but it doesn't work into my schedule these days.
ThyPeace, recovering from Easter overindulgence.

Hi @crossiter -- I'm just trying to make it above about 100 grams of protein a day.  I tend to slide below that pretty often.  I had never really eaten pre- or post- WO meals, so was trying to do that.  I used up my protein powder and bars that way, but, meh.  I dunno.  I end up wandering around looking for food.  Probably the fructose and other sweeteners in those things are what does it.  
Of course, this morning there was sliced chicken in the fridge when I got back from my run.  Did I grab some?  Nope.  Forgot completely, even though I thought about it when I walked in the house.
ThyPeace, a person of significant adherence to routines.  This can be both good and bad.

I had extreme soreness in my first week, but when I added a spoonful of almond butter pre-WO and 2 ounces tuna post-WO, the soreness virtually went away. I'm doing crossfit-style WODs every morning M-F + usually a strength session before the WOD. I also spin 1-2 times per week (I teach once a week).
That being said, I did have to take today off the gym for the first time in 3 months (I take rest days on the weekend, but the first time I missed my weekday workout since November). I feel so much better having given myself that rest, even though I felt bad for missing my workout.
Maybe try to give yourself extra rest. I am thankful I did it even though I was dreading it.

The post workout food is not a full meal, just a couple bites. I typically ate my 2-3 bites of chicken breast sitting in my car after the wod before driving home to have dinner. I batch cook for everything except breakfast during the work week so it was maybe 25 minutes between my post-workout food and my dinner. The couple bites of whatever won't make you too full for your breakfast. It's just a fast hit of protein for your muscles. Once you're eating enough, the workouts will pick up. 

Hi Heidi. Avid distance runner here. It sounds like you're working out with depleted glycogen stores. I guess you've planned that.. as you're wanting your body to use fat as a primary source of energy? However, working out intensely and with that frequency will yield frustrating fatigue and inefficient energy burning if those stores are depleted. Most people with a full tank of glycogen should last 'at least' 60 minutes of aerobic activity without needing to refuel any carbs. Some can go 90-120m. If you're burning out in 30 minutes, it seems clear you're body is telling you that you need the carbs.
I'd keep the morning banana and almond butter. From your menu choices it looks like you'd be safe adding an extra fruit serving in to your routine anyhow. The banana is in the high glycemic index, is considered a simple carbohydrate and will be added to your short term energy stores quickly. You're certainly not being indulgent or non compliant. There's a lot of misconceptions out there about fat vs glycogen fueling though not sure if that is your goal in avoiding the banana. Check this out for more clarity: http://www.livestrong.com/article/331651-burning-fat-vs-glycogen/

Thanks for the visual, Kirkor!  I try hard to run like the first guy, and still run like the second guy in many ways, I'm sure.  
 
That said, I want to share a personal milestone.  Today, for the first time, I ran THE WHOLE WAY.  Now, this was only 2.75 miles.  But even when I was a fat kid in high school and had to run the mile, I ended up walking a lot of it.  I have never in my life considered that I might run continuously for more than 30 minutes, which is what I did.  32 minutes, 5 seconds, to be exact.  
 
I had set out to do my usual 2.15 morning miles, which I have been doing for much of the last two months as a "short" day.  After I ran that without a break to walk -- and it surprised the heck out of me that I did! -- I still had ten minutes left in my half hour.  So I went ahead and continued running around our "block."   That's another 0.6 miles, and there you have it!  32 minutes, 2.75 miles, and I feel so completely awesome that I want to go out and run some more.  
 
And in fact, when I got home, I felt as though I could have run more.  My feet are a little sore, yes, and the other spots that tend to get tired first were just starting to let me know that they were tired, but I think I could have gone another mile.
 
Woohoo!  
 
ThyPeace, going to be totally chipper for the rest of the day.

I ran a half marathon today on day 28 and had a PR, so you can get your running back! Having said that, I only drank water, some coconut water and ate two apple slices during, while I obviously ran faster, I also felt pretty horrible afterwards, definitely looking forward to being able to maybe relax and drink some electrolyte replacement stuff for my next one. I had though I found a compliant one at earthfare, but it had stevia extract. But I think I'll allow it once I'm off whole 30, just on race days. 

Thanks, MadscienceM!  That (and making sure that I have shoes that were fitted at a running store, which I have) were the two suggestions I got on MyFitnessPal.  I got several suggestions about types of lacing, and several links.  Lacing patterns designed to reduce pressure across the top of the foot, which can lead to sore spots, blisters, and numbness, seemed to be the right thing.  Those break down into either parallel lacing, where the laces run directly across rather than in a crossover pattern, and a crossover pattern with some eyelets not crossed but just laced to the next one up.  I laced my shoes in the parallel lacing pattern last night.  
This morning was my walking morning with DH, so I didn't get a full test to see whether my feet feel better, but I think it may be an improvement.  Tomorrow I'll run for 45 minutes, so that will tell me whether it's going to help in the longer term.  Here's a link to a variety of techniques, with videos to show you how to do it.  I found that I needed the video, because even once I got started, it wasn't obvious how to keep going or finish.  There are also a fair number of YouTube videos that are helpful.
http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/alternative-ways-to-tie-your-running-shoes
I'm kind of glad I didn't run this morning.  Yesterday's strength workout include something called bottom-up squats, where you bend over to touch your toes, then squat, raise your arms over your head, and stand up from that very low squat.  My knees are letting me know that they are not used to that motion today.
ThyPeace, hasn't had aching knees in a while; this is probably a sign of improvement.

Hi MeadowLily!  I do warm up and cool down with a 5 minute walk, actually.  The walk afterward is one of my favorite times.
Friday, DH and I ran together for a while, then I ran by myself.  He gets annoyed when I "randomly" (because he can't seen into my brain and I don't communicate it well) change directions on our runs.  Friday in particular, I planned to head in a general direction for a specific amount of time, but then we got to what I'd thought would be the turnaround faster than I expected, so I did some sight-seeing in the neighborhood.  Made the poor man crazy.  So when we were headed home and he asked me where next, and my answer was "home-ish, may need to wander the neighborhood some more" (I'm omitting all the puffing and pauses for breathing), he growled and then headed home another way.  He also likes running faster than I do, so it's good for him to be able to run at his own pace some of the time.  I bet he's building a great aerobic base by running with me.  Anyway, that was 3.6 miles of running (45 minutes) without a pause except when we had to wait for a light.  Felt pretty good.
Sunday was the "long" run.  This time it was 5.3 miles in 1:09, with walk breaks when I felt like walking.  Interesting to watch my heart rate and note how I feel.  150 BPM is working hard but sustainable but not forever.  108 BPM is when I start to feel like I could speed up again while walking.   Actually, possibly a little faster than that, because my FitBit started that part of the conversation with "You are sweating too much for me to measure your heart rate."  So maybe more like 120 than 110.  For that run, too, I made enough course changes that DH ran by himself for a while.  He definitely needs to run faster than me at least a little, though -- when he finally went off by himself, he was a block ahead of me in no time. 
We did not exactly make it to one of my goals, though, which is to have a normal day after the run.  We napped and cuddled for a couple of hours after our showers, and only then went on to the food and chores part of the day.  (Okay, okay, it was 4pm before we ate...)
I went looking for answers to my above speculation about having a conversation while running.  The MyFitnessPal forums are quite active, and I got a decent number of answers to my questions.  To summarize, the advice was:
- Keep going!
- Do interval training.
- Don't worry about it.  I can't have a conversation either but I can still run.
- Try heart rate monitoring instead (hence the above greater attention to heart rates).
- Keep going!!
So okay, I'm keeping going.  My legs are sore from the 5.3 miles yesterday, but not so sore that I couldn't do my strength workout today.  I have to admit that I wimped out a little on the squats and pushups, though.  My knees are sore.  And pushups, well.  Justice Ginsberg does not yet have much competition from me.
Tomorrow, I hope, will be my short 30 minute run.  It's been a weather mess here today, and I'm hoping the rain stops by tomorrow morning.
 
ThyPeace, my next question on MyFitnessPal will be about shoes.  Because my feet keep going numb where my shoes are tied.
 
 

Hi @MadscienceM, glad to help out!  Since I started Whole30 before I started running, I don't know what it's like to run without Whole30.  On Sunday, I ran 5.3 miles without bothering to eat anything first -- I normally skip food before workouts, and though the Whole30 template says to eat before a workout, I find that I function just as well or better without it.  And in fact, on Friday and yesterday I didn't eat anything until early to mid afternoon without any negative effects.  I was very hungry once I did eat, and was happy to do so, but I think my body has adjusted well to fat burning.  
As for melting off the weight, I can attest to the fact that running doesn't do that.  It's just running, and you're sure to increase your food intake to accommodate the exercise.  It's just also incredibly good for you.  
@ABW, wow, thanks for reading the whole thread.  I am continuing to post here mostly to document my progress, and thank you for pointing out that there is indeed progress!  It feels so painfully slow sometimes!  Oh wait, that's because it is both painful AND slow!  But also fun and worth it.
ThyPeace, will post an update from the last few days this evening, I hope.

I don't know much about this subject, but I can Google pretty well.  Here's a list of foods that are high in BCAAs.  All but one (peanuts) are compliant:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ask-the-macro-manager-what-are-the-best-bcaa-food-sources.html
ThyPeace, Mmmm, chickentunasalmoneggs...

I find that eggs by themselves do not allow me to make it through to the next meal -- I always need to add some other protein.  I usually do pork or chicken, but taco meat is a lovely change of pace when I have it available.  The added protein is far more satisfying for me; YMMV, of course.
 
ThyPeace, not that I can do a 15 mile run even if I were eating pasta, bread, and potatoes at every meal!

My protein "powder" when I'm doing a Whole30 is a packet of tuna.
 
ThyPeace, straight from the packet.

 
So if you're a surgery resident, you're already accustomed to pushing yourself well beyond what most people understand.  I suspect your definition of "slow," for example, is faster than many people's definition of that term.  What I would focus on is whether you are healthy before work, Whole30, half marathon, and P90x2.  I think the major thing you're missing in your overall assessment is recovery time (critical for those who go all the time) and connect-with-people-you-care-about time.  I realize that it is extremely challenging to fit those into the life you have, and they are also two of the items that are critical to your long term survival and thriving.  As an example, it takes about 20 hours a week to build a solid, intimate relationship (with a partner or a child) and about 10 hours a week to maintain it after it is built.  Less time for relationships that are not as close.  That's not half-assed watching tv together time, but real focused interaction time.  You probably don't have the time to build good relationships now, except that you are at risk of developing inadvertent close relationships with the people you work with just because you're around them so much.  Spending time with the people you already have commitments to, though, is really important.  So walking with someone you love may be a better investment than running alone, even if you don't make the half-marathon goal that way.
Sleep, similarly, cures all things stress-related.  8 hours every single time day (other than the 24 hour shifts) should be mandatory.  Sure, sure, tell me you are one of those special cases who only needs 3 hours a night.  Now go try 8 and see whether you perform better.
 
ThyPeace, surgery, oof.  Yeah, I want you operating on me when you're sleep deprived and haven't seen your family in a week!