ThyPeace

 
I'm not exactly an old hand, but I did find this:
- Make sure to eat more carbs ahead of a long run.  Doesn't really matter what, so pick what you like.  Starchy seems to be the recommendation of choice here over fruit; I'm not sure I agree.  But try that first and see what happens.
- During a run, try dates rolled in salt and potassium chloride.  I've also read about people using boiled eggs on their long runs.  Also, try coconut water 
- Afterward, it's all about rehydrating, rebuilding your electrolytes, and rebuilding depleted carbs.  For me, that meant a mix of water, a fruit juice, salt, and potassium chloride.  For you it might look different.  
 
ThyPeace, I will also note that walking in the house from a long run is NOT the time you want your kid saying, "Hey Mama, do you want a Rice Krispies treat?"  But you know, it tasted really, really good.  

You should look into "Thinner, Leaner Stronger "by Mike Matthews. My feel for you after reading your post is that your diet is probably fine. Mike's book talks a lot about diet and macros but I think you may benefit from the weight program alone. I have been following his 5 day split for 2 years. I hit a plateau and just recently have been making gains again after starting whole30. His philosophy is HEAVY compound lifting preferably 5x a week with HIIT- like workouts. Check it out. You may just need to shake up the gym routine. You can get his book on amazon.

Learn from me - don't overdo it with sugar during the reintroduction phase, or post W30 eating. Because you can lose your hard earned fat adaption, and that's what happened to me. So now, 8 days into my 2nd W30, my legs are burning and I'm dreading my run tomorrow. And there is NO WAY I'd give in and eat carbs or sugar, because I KNOW that at some point, my body will adapt again.  And I never want to have to go through this again, so I will be far more judicious in my sweets consumption.
That is all.
 

Hey all! I'm also marathon training. I'll be honest I have finished the Whole30 but decided to keep going after a week off. So I've reset.
I did a long run of 12 this morning at a 9:33 pace. This is pretty good for me seeing as I am 11 months out from having a baby.
For pre run breakfast it's either 2 eggs with some sweet potato, apple, onion hash or a banana with almond butter.
During my run I stop for 30 seconds or so and drink water (I mix in a little coconut water before for added electrolytes) eat a date and 5-6 salted dry roasted almonds. Half way through my run I will have half or a whole larabar.
Post run I have 2 or 3 eggs, spinach sautéed with a tomato or some more hash. 
My body feels good, I feel fueled and hydrated, and my energy is good throughout my run. 
 
Hope this helps!
 

The places where I'd watch carefully are after your longest runs of the week, when you need to make sure you have had enough carbs to rebuild your glycogen stores.  If you've done this three times before, I am sure you know more than I do about dragging around with no energy because you have no energy!  Lots of folks will say that becoming fat adapted means that you still have to go through that, to which I say phooey.  You can Whole30 and still get enough carbs to do distance training.  It does take thought, though.  Sweet potatoes and other root vegetables are good friends.  
I'd also make sure that you have a steady stream of protein at every meal.  It's part of the template, and it's another area where, as a long distance runner, you may find that the change in diet makes a difference.  Not enough protein will make your body repair itself more slowly, leading to a different kind of "I can't function" than the above glycogen mess.
And if this is your first time without gels and electrolytes, do make sure to try it all out as soon as you can.  Dates rolled in salt and potassium chloride if you are a salty sweater, for example, can really be good to know about long before the race itself.
ThyPeace, and now I am completely out of knowledge about fueling and hydrating for distances.  

This is a problem I wouldn't mind having, I must admit.  More seriously, if you feel good and your performance stays the same or better, I wouldn't worry about it.  If you notice that you have lost more weight than you wanted to or your performance starts to suffer, then I'd look more closely.
ThyPeace, if your body says it has enough fuel, it's okay to believe it.
 

Don't give up!  And DO listen to your body.  Going from gels and beans to anything else is HARD.  So drink up, and yes, definitely have good fuel.  You might try dates -- they're almost as pure a sugar as the beans and gels.  And check your electrolytes -- do you need salt or potassium or magnesium?  And get some sleep because, well, sleep is always good for what ails you.
If you keep feeling awful, consider seeing a doc.  For now, though, treat yourself well.  The last thing you want (this I know all too well) is to get injured from pushing when you shouldn't.
ThyPeace, injured.

Hi @RandiW!  It seems to me that you already "started" because you have plenty of years working with your body already.  If that seems like a good spot to be in to you, great!  And -- do you know what your body is like when its fuel sources/hydration/sleep/stress levels are too low and too high?  As a recent example for me, I didn't know that coming home so exhausted that I was weaving after a long run could be prevented -- until I changed my hydration and fueling.  Then wow!  I was feeling great!  
... Until I learned later that afternoon that I was running in the wrong shoes.  Sigh.  Still recovering from that piece of it.
ThyPeace, be slow and steady.  It's really worth it.

Thanks to your advice, I switched up my nutrition on my cardio session this morning. I'm feeling much better this afternoon!
Here's what I did:
Few bites of baked chicken 15 minutes before.  Coconut water during workout.  2 dates rolled in Himalaya salt and one pouch of sweet potato/squash baby food during workout. Immediately following: few more bites of baked chicken and butternut squash Then a regular breakfast about an hour later. 

Hi again,
I wanted to check back in to report that here on Day 29 and I've been feeling great. I turned the corner working out and have set a few PRs, which is really exciting. My energy has been great.  @WholeRunner Do you mind if I call on your Ragnar experience? My Ragnar (Cape Cod, my second one there) is coming up at the end of next week and even though I'll be done with my Whole30, I've been feeling so great that I plan to more or less stay on it. Do you have advice about what to eat between runs? Normally I'd have bagels and peanut butter, sliced turkey, granola bars, Gu.
 
Thanks for your advice!
 

Thanks for the visual, Kirkor!  I try hard to run like the first guy, and still run like the second guy in many ways, I'm sure.  
 
That said, I want to share a personal milestone.  Today, for the first time, I ran THE WHOLE WAY.  Now, this was only 2.75 miles.  But even when I was a fat kid in high school and had to run the mile, I ended up walking a lot of it.  I have never in my life considered that I might run continuously for more than 30 minutes, which is what I did.  32 minutes, 5 seconds, to be exact.  
 
I had set out to do my usual 2.15 morning miles, which I have been doing for much of the last two months as a "short" day.  After I ran that without a break to walk -- and it surprised the heck out of me that I did! -- I still had ten minutes left in my half hour.  So I went ahead and continued running around our "block."   That's another 0.6 miles, and there you have it!  32 minutes, 2.75 miles, and I feel so completely awesome that I want to go out and run some more.  
 
And in fact, when I got home, I felt as though I could have run more.  My feet are a little sore, yes, and the other spots that tend to get tired first were just starting to let me know that they were tired, but I think I could have gone another mile.
 
Woohoo!  
 
ThyPeace, going to be totally chipper for the rest of the day.

 
Thanks, MadscienceM.  I don't think I kicked Butt, but I accomplished some things.  First, I finished!!  And second, I RAN THE WHOLE WAY!  I'm very happy with both.  There was a woman just a little ahead of me who kept a steady pace that I thought I could keep.  I could have passed her toward the beginning, but decided not to.  That was a good choice, because she kept that very steady pace long after I wanted to do something -- anything! -- else.  But she just kept going at her steady pace, and I did my best to keep up with her.  That worked until about mile 4, when my stomach started bothering me and she just kept running. 
So did I, just slower.  And somewhere around the 5th mile or a bit later, she really picked up the pace and ended up quite a long way ahead of me.  That's okay.  I. Just. Kept. Running.  In the end, it took me 1:07, so a pace of ... 10:47.  Huh.  I hadn't calculated it until just now.  That's pretty good.  (For me.)  No wonder they call it a PR course.  And it was really a nice course.  Flat or downhill most of the way, and because it's on a major road, it was beautifully lacking in side tilts and other things that hurt my various body parts.  By the end, though, my right hip was really aching.  And did I mention my stomach?  Sigh.  My first stop was the port-a-potties.  Next time a race starts at that particular time, maybe I need to remember to have coffee 90 minutes before that.  That usually moves things along relatively well for me.  Heck, before a race I could even try some regular coffee, rather than the decaf I usually drink.  (My family is hypersensitive to caffeine.  We usually don't drink regular coffee.  I learned the hard way in grad school when I was awake for three days after finals ended...)
Anyway, the race had good and bad points, and there are several things I want to work on to improve.  Mostly, I want to keep getting healthier at running.  By which I mean that I want to improve my form so that I can go longer before it starts to hurt.
DH also ended up running the race even with his sore foot.  He was debating even yesterday about whether he was going to run.  And this morning he was debating about whether he was going to stick with me and go slow, or strike out on his own.  I knew what would happen once he started running, though, and sure enough, he struck out ahead of me and just kept going.  Several months ago when we signed up for this race, his goal was to run it in an hour.  Today, once he left me, he passed the 1:05 pacer fairly quickly and soon started looking for the 1:00 pacer.  (I passed the 1:10 pacer and no one else, of course.)  He ended up finishing in 1:00:04.  And he also finished in a good bit of pain from his heel and Achilles tendon.  We got some ice from the med tent and he iced it on the train ride back to the start and also in the car on the way home.  And then he dumped his foot in a bucket of ice before taking a shower.  There was more ice, Aleve, and a bike ride to try to ease the pain, as well.  He found out last weekend that the bike ride helped a lot.  I don't know if it'll help the same day as a race; we'll find that out tomorrow, I suppose.  I hope he's not in too much pain.
Next weekend I'll have a regular jog in the part, and then the following weekend there is an 8K race less than a mile from my house.  I'll probably do that one just for the fun of it, even though it's not really long enough for my Sunday runs. 
And...the lady I followed for so long today was wearing a shirt that said something like "If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right." There was a 13.1 on the tail. 
ThyPeace, it makes me think about half marathons.  I think I could do one.  And the one that people have recommended to me ends about a mile from my house.  I have run parts of the course already in my usual weekly runs.  Hmmmm.
 
 
 

Hi PARyan --
Thanks for posting this!  I think it's an interesting question.  
I was never a fully competitive swimmer either, unless you want to count 8th grade swim team.  I was a synchronized swimmer in college, and a life guard and swimming instructor.  On top of all that, I'm far from a Whole30 expert.  Nonetheless, here are a couple of thoughts:
- 3000 meters is a good solid workout; far more intense than most people who are non-swimmers would realize.  I think you may not be getting enough food, based on what you said.  Glad you added potato/starch, and I think you should also add more protein.  You might want to add some vegetables to your breakfast, rather than fruit.  Some people find that the fruit isn't so helpful, and the hardcore Whole30ers will tell you that it encourages your body to make the wrong kind of glycogen (which is stored in your liver rather than in your muscles).  
- How's the sleep?  If you're under 7.5 hours a night, try dialing it up to at least that and preferably more.
- Make sure you are salting your food and eating lots of veggies to get your potassium.  And hydrate.  You sweat a ton when you swim, even if you don't notice it.  And at least for me, my body seems to process tons of pee while I'm swimming!  (TMI, I know...)
- Since you're doing masters swimming, does the program also include weights or strength training?  If so, make sure you factor that into your plans.
Good luck with the swims!  I miss that form of exercise quite often, but it doesn't work into my schedule these days.
ThyPeace, recovering from Easter overindulgence.

Hi @crossiter -- I'm just trying to make it above about 100 grams of protein a day.  I tend to slide below that pretty often.  I had never really eaten pre- or post- WO meals, so was trying to do that.  I used up my protein powder and bars that way, but, meh.  I dunno.  I end up wandering around looking for food.  Probably the fructose and other sweeteners in those things are what does it.  
Of course, this morning there was sliced chicken in the fridge when I got back from my run.  Did I grab some?  Nope.  Forgot completely, even though I thought about it when I walked in the house.
ThyPeace, a person of significant adherence to routines.  This can be both good and bad.

It seems to me, though I am definitely not an expert, that you should be eating a template meal at that point, making absolutely sure to get enough protein, and making sure that you eat enough to satisfy you, but not stuffed.  How long between when you eat and when you go to bed?
 
ThyPeace, could be that your breakfast and lunch will need to be larger relative to your other meals.

 
Hiya, Hangman_mi!  Welcome to the Whole30. You're right that as you increase your activity levels, your endurance will build up.  However, doing that at the same time as starting a new diet can sometimes present some challenges.  I suggest being really gradual with your gym work buildup.  I am also 49, and I can say for sure that working out now is not quite the same as working out when I was 30.  The major difference being that I need more rest and recovery time, and warming up has become absolutely critical rather than just a nice idea.  If you want to get back to the point of 2 hours of intense activity, I suggest starting by seeing what you can actually do for two hours.  Can you walk for two hours, or do two hours of yard work?  If you can't, then that's the place to start.  Intermingling that with short bouts of higher intensities (jogging, digging, racquet ball, whatever) will build your endurance.  Expect it to take a while, though.  If you try to rush it, all the little niggling aches and pains can quickly turn into injuries.  (Yes, I learned the hard way and probably you will too, but at least you'll have warning and know to lay off faster than you would have otherwise.)
I will also say that for me, getting enough protein and building blocks (bone broth is my friend) is really important for recovery.  I have had to more than double my protein intake since I started this whole process, and am still struggling to actually get to amounts that work optimally for me.
ThyPeace, it's worth it, though!

I had extreme soreness in my first week, but when I added a spoonful of almond butter pre-WO and 2 ounces tuna post-WO, the soreness virtually went away. I'm doing crossfit-style WODs every morning M-F + usually a strength session before the WOD. I also spin 1-2 times per week (I teach once a week).
That being said, I did have to take today off the gym for the first time in 3 months (I take rest days on the weekend, but the first time I missed my weekday workout since November). I feel so much better having given myself that rest, even though I felt bad for missing my workout.
Maybe try to give yourself extra rest. I am thankful I did it even though I was dreading it.

Hi Nikki,
I'm sure someone will be along to remind you that you're not supposed to step on the scale during a Whole30, but I'm not going to focus there.  instead, I'm going to focus on your worry -- that if you slack off at the gym, you'll go back to being morbidly obese.  (Probably, if your mind works the way mine does, in less than a week of eating three corn chips and two chocolate chip cookies).
And it's a reasonable worry, if overblown.  I have proven to myself twice so far this year that I can gain ten pounds in a week.  For me, grains in the form of bread are a key indicator of my weight, as are other highly-refined foods.  Now that I have done a few Whole30s and eat much more cleanly even when I'm not doing a Whole30, I know that my weight will go up when I have a creamed soup or a chicken curry.  Heaven help me if I have beets!
So -- that 10 pounds is an indicator that your body is reacting differently to something you're eating, and specifically that it is processing your food differently.  "Different" can mean a lot of different things, from your digestion speed to the amount of liquid required for digestion (a lot!!) to a whole bunch of other things that I don't know because they're about you and not about me.
When you are done with your Whole30 and your life reverts, there is a really good chance that you'll gain all that weight back.  And that's where I really want to point something out:  don't panic if that happens.  A "slow-roll" reintroduction may help you figure out what changes have helped you the most.  That will then help you decide what you want to work to keep doing and what you don't.  For me, for example, bread as a part of regular meals tends not to be worth the adverse impacts.  My husband's home-baked treats for special occasions are worth it.  Halloween candy, while not worth it, seems to be a temptation I have not yet learned to get rid of.  But I am learning to limit it to one day, rather than two weeks of fun.
ThyPeace, The important thing is to learn and do better than you did before, not to be perfect!

Hi Nikki,
I'm sure someone will be along to remind you that you're not supposed to step on the scale during a Whole30, but I'm not going to focus there.  instead, I'm going to focus on your worry -- that if you slack off at the gym, you'll go back to being morbidly obese.  (Probably, if your mind works the way mine does, in less than a week of eating three corn chips and two chocolate chip cookies).
And it's a reasonable worry, if overblown.  I have proven to myself twice so far this year that I can gain ten pounds in a week.  For me, grains in the form of bread are a key indicator of my weight, as are other highly-refined foods.  Now that I have done a few Whole30s and eat much more cleanly even when I'm not doing a Whole30, I know that my weight will go up when I have a creamed soup or a chicken curry.  Heaven help me if I have beets!
So -- that 10 pounds is an indicator that your body is reacting differently to something you're eating, and specifically that it is processing your food differently.  "Different" can mean a lot of different things, from your digestion speed to the amount of liquid required for digestion (a lot!!) to a whole bunch of other things that I don't know because they're about you and not about me.
When you are done with your Whole30 and your life reverts, there is a really good chance that you'll gain all that weight back.  And that's where I really want to point something out:  don't panic if that happens.  A "slow-roll" reintroduction may help you figure out what changes have helped you the most.  That will then help you decide what you want to work to keep doing and what you don't.  For me, for example, bread as a part of regular meals tends not to be worth the adverse impacts.  My husband's home-baked treats for special occasions are worth it.  Halloween candy, while not worth it, seems to be a temptation I have not yet learned to get rid of.  But I am learning to limit it to one day, rather than two weeks of fun.
ThyPeace, The important thing is to learn and do better than you did before, not to be perfect!

The post workout food is not a full meal, just a couple bites. I typically ate my 2-3 bites of chicken breast sitting in my car after the wod before driving home to have dinner. I batch cook for everything except breakfast during the work week so it was maybe 25 minutes between my post-workout food and my dinner. The couple bites of whatever won't make you too full for your breakfast. It's just a fast hit of protein for your muscles. Once you're eating enough, the workouts will pick up. 

Hi Heidi. Avid distance runner here. It sounds like you're working out with depleted glycogen stores. I guess you've planned that.. as you're wanting your body to use fat as a primary source of energy? However, working out intensely and with that frequency will yield frustrating fatigue and inefficient energy burning if those stores are depleted. Most people with a full tank of glycogen should last 'at least' 60 minutes of aerobic activity without needing to refuel any carbs. Some can go 90-120m. If you're burning out in 30 minutes, it seems clear you're body is telling you that you need the carbs.
I'd keep the morning banana and almond butter. From your menu choices it looks like you'd be safe adding an extra fruit serving in to your routine anyhow. The banana is in the high glycemic index, is considered a simple carbohydrate and will be added to your short term energy stores quickly. You're certainly not being indulgent or non compliant. There's a lot of misconceptions out there about fat vs glycogen fueling though not sure if that is your goal in avoiding the banana. Check this out for more clarity: http://www.livestrong.com/article/331651-burning-fat-vs-glycogen/

Thanks for the visual, Kirkor!  I try hard to run like the first guy, and still run like the second guy in many ways, I'm sure.  
 
That said, I want to share a personal milestone.  Today, for the first time, I ran THE WHOLE WAY.  Now, this was only 2.75 miles.  But even when I was a fat kid in high school and had to run the mile, I ended up walking a lot of it.  I have never in my life considered that I might run continuously for more than 30 minutes, which is what I did.  32 minutes, 5 seconds, to be exact.  
 
I had set out to do my usual 2.15 morning miles, which I have been doing for much of the last two months as a "short" day.  After I ran that without a break to walk -- and it surprised the heck out of me that I did! -- I still had ten minutes left in my half hour.  So I went ahead and continued running around our "block."   That's another 0.6 miles, and there you have it!  32 minutes, 2.75 miles, and I feel so completely awesome that I want to go out and run some more.  
 
And in fact, when I got home, I felt as though I could have run more.  My feet are a little sore, yes, and the other spots that tend to get tired first were just starting to let me know that they were tired, but I think I could have gone another mile.
 
Woohoo!  
 
ThyPeace, going to be totally chipper for the rest of the day.

I ran a half marathon today on day 28 and had a PR, so you can get your running back! Having said that, I only drank water, some coconut water and ate two apple slices during, while I obviously ran faster, I also felt pretty horrible afterwards, definitely looking forward to being able to maybe relax and drink some electrolyte replacement stuff for my next one. I had though I found a compliant one at earthfare, but it had stevia extract. But I think I'll allow it once I'm off whole 30, just on race days. 

Thanks, MadscienceM!  That (and making sure that I have shoes that were fitted at a running store, which I have) were the two suggestions I got on MyFitnessPal.  I got several suggestions about types of lacing, and several links.  Lacing patterns designed to reduce pressure across the top of the foot, which can lead to sore spots, blisters, and numbness, seemed to be the right thing.  Those break down into either parallel lacing, where the laces run directly across rather than in a crossover pattern, and a crossover pattern with some eyelets not crossed but just laced to the next one up.  I laced my shoes in the parallel lacing pattern last night.  
This morning was my walking morning with DH, so I didn't get a full test to see whether my feet feel better, but I think it may be an improvement.  Tomorrow I'll run for 45 minutes, so that will tell me whether it's going to help in the longer term.  Here's a link to a variety of techniques, with videos to show you how to do it.  I found that I needed the video, because even once I got started, it wasn't obvious how to keep going or finish.  There are also a fair number of YouTube videos that are helpful.
http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/alternative-ways-to-tie-your-running-shoes
I'm kind of glad I didn't run this morning.  Yesterday's strength workout include something called bottom-up squats, where you bend over to touch your toes, then squat, raise your arms over your head, and stand up from that very low squat.  My knees are letting me know that they are not used to that motion today.
ThyPeace, hasn't had aching knees in a while; this is probably a sign of improvement.

Hi MeadowLily!  I do warm up and cool down with a 5 minute walk, actually.  The walk afterward is one of my favorite times.
Friday, DH and I ran together for a while, then I ran by myself.  He gets annoyed when I "randomly" (because he can't seen into my brain and I don't communicate it well) change directions on our runs.  Friday in particular, I planned to head in a general direction for a specific amount of time, but then we got to what I'd thought would be the turnaround faster than I expected, so I did some sight-seeing in the neighborhood.  Made the poor man crazy.  So when we were headed home and he asked me where next, and my answer was "home-ish, may need to wander the neighborhood some more" (I'm omitting all the puffing and pauses for breathing), he growled and then headed home another way.  He also likes running faster than I do, so it's good for him to be able to run at his own pace some of the time.  I bet he's building a great aerobic base by running with me.  Anyway, that was 3.6 miles of running (45 minutes) without a pause except when we had to wait for a light.  Felt pretty good.
Sunday was the "long" run.  This time it was 5.3 miles in 1:09, with walk breaks when I felt like walking.  Interesting to watch my heart rate and note how I feel.  150 BPM is working hard but sustainable but not forever.  108 BPM is when I start to feel like I could speed up again while walking.   Actually, possibly a little faster than that, because my FitBit started that part of the conversation with "You are sweating too much for me to measure your heart rate."  So maybe more like 120 than 110.  For that run, too, I made enough course changes that DH ran by himself for a while.  He definitely needs to run faster than me at least a little, though -- when he finally went off by himself, he was a block ahead of me in no time. 
We did not exactly make it to one of my goals, though, which is to have a normal day after the run.  We napped and cuddled for a couple of hours after our showers, and only then went on to the food and chores part of the day.  (Okay, okay, it was 4pm before we ate...)
I went looking for answers to my above speculation about having a conversation while running.  The MyFitnessPal forums are quite active, and I got a decent number of answers to my questions.  To summarize, the advice was:
- Keep going!
- Do interval training.
- Don't worry about it.  I can't have a conversation either but I can still run.
- Try heart rate monitoring instead (hence the above greater attention to heart rates).
- Keep going!!
So okay, I'm keeping going.  My legs are sore from the 5.3 miles yesterday, but not so sore that I couldn't do my strength workout today.  I have to admit that I wimped out a little on the squats and pushups, though.  My knees are sore.  And pushups, well.  Justice Ginsberg does not yet have much competition from me.
Tomorrow, I hope, will be my short 30 minute run.  It's been a weather mess here today, and I'm hoping the rain stops by tomorrow morning.
 
ThyPeace, my next question on MyFitnessPal will be about shoes.  Because my feet keep going numb where my shoes are tied.