SWYPO.. but maybe not?

[Beets]

It's about changing habits. There is logic in it. Most people are coming from a mindset where breakfast = sweetened processed carbs that aren't nutrient dense and that set you up poorly for the day. The W30 forces you to rethink breakfast.

Again, it's not just about ingredients. Though, what makes a better breakfast: coconut flour, egg and banana or a grassfed steak with roasted broccoli?

Yeah it's ok once in awhile if it works for you. But people coming from daily bagels or sweetened oatmeal need a good 30 days to break those habits.

[Moluv]

As I recall, the rule about paleofying/SWYPO was not part of the original W30, but arose from feedback gleaned from real people following the program. It's a tweak designed to improve the program's ability to change your relationship with food from a psychological as well as physiological standpoint. Maybe there isn't as much research available in the subtle nuances of the emotions of eating as there are on the physiological effects, so the proof seems thin. There is sufficient anecdotal evidence to warrant some attention and perhaps in a decade or two we will know much more about it.

[Castle]

So for me (as a scientist), the logical inconsistencies are a huge flaw. I know, someone out there is going to try to convince me that it isn't a logical inconsistency to say coconut pancakes are bad and cauliflower rice is good, but seriously, it isn't logical. Rice=bad carb; pancakes=bad carb. Cauliflower rice=veggie=good. Coconut pancakes=eggs (good) + coconut milk (good) + some coconut flour (neutral) + coconut oil (good)

Putting aside the issue of rice as a good or bad carb, I find issue with your argument. SWYPO is a completely personal thing - if someone has rice addictions, they absolutely should not use cauliflower rice as a substitute. If they're someone like me - not addicted to rice, just want something to mop up the sauce - then it's not an issue.

Using myself as an example, on a Whole30 I would have no qualms about a paleo pizza. Oddly enough (given my prior addiction to 1grains and dairy), I've never craved pizza, even pre-paleo. The only reason I didn't have it on my W30s was that I didn't feel like it.

But I wouldn't get within a hundred feet of paleo bread on a W30. I don't care if the bread and the crust had the exact same nutritional make up, and if I was going to eat the exact same food on the bread as I would on the pizza. As a former bread addict, I wouldn't touch it. As I understand it, SWYPO is purely about the psychological aspect, not the nutritional.

[Sylwia Zygalo]

@nksl

I agree that the logical inconsistencies are what instigate my doubts, and I only feel fuelled by blind faith based on testimonials. I'm not giving in but I'm not totally satisfied with the information given. I have never followed a fad diet in my life, and I started Whole30 because it seemed.. whole. I would really like it to be that, but I feel the rules need to be clearer. If you give me a list of foods that I can and cannot eat, I will follow that list. But if you suddenly tell me that I cannot eat a certain meal made of the foods that are allowed, it will confuse me. Furthermore, if you then tell me that I can eat one meal and not the other, even though it seems like both fall in the same category, I will scramble for answers.

I think the biggest contradiction for me is Melissa stating in the manifesto that you can eat the amazing Paleo fried chicken on your Whole30 unless you're coming off a wicked addiction to KFC. So, here we get an approval to Paleofy this meal so long as we do not have an addiction to fried chicken. However, in an earlier reply to me she stated that pancakes are banned, even if I do not have a previous addiction to them, because they could create an addiction. Would the same scenario not occur with the fried chicken? It would be helpful to have Melissa's clarification on this.

@Moluv

I agree with you that it can become a psychological addiction, but in the case of the pancakes, I'm not sure I see anything wrong with having the occasional pancake made with eggs and bananas. I see it as a realistic association to have whilst coming off Whole30 and integrating it into your life. Many of the reviews I read of Whole30 were those saying, "Wow, I definitely felt a reset there, but boy do I miss ________ and can't wait to integrate it back into my diet". Why not create habits in that 30 days that would take you away from dairy and flour laden goods and into ones more healthful for you?

You stated that you carried your own doubts and observed contradictions and yet followed with blind faith anyway. Maybe that works for you, and you've clearly seen benefits, but mentally I'm just not satisfied with that as a philosophy of my own. I can't just follow something because they are The Rules. Why are they the rules? Why is it acceptable to have a "no breaks" food like cashew hummus (with tahini!) but not pancakes? What about the fried chicken? If you ask me not to waffle but to follow the rules, it begins to feel like some kind of cult or religion for me. And yes, I'm still confused as to why we can't have smoothies but we're allowed soups!

On one side, I love not waking with regrets about having drank or eaten something that may have made me bloated or tired. I love that I'm cooking every day and I would like to continue until my end date. However, I do admit that the confusion and contradictions are killing it for me a little bit. As I said above, I believe the rules just need to be a bit clearer.

[Kirsteen]

The problem for me is that ISWF claims to be based on scientific findings. There are some bold ideas in ISWF regarding nutrition that, if not based on scientific research, would make ISWF and whole30 just another fad diet. Science depends on logic (ie., the scientific method is a system for making logical inferences based on data).

Hi, the W30 is based on scientificfindings but, as it says somewhere, I can't remember where off the top of my head, it's like a pyramid. The solid base is scientific findings, the next layer up is observation of how these findings affect most peopple and at the top is your particular individual experience of them. The basic tenets of W30, cut out dairy, grains, legumes etc for 30 days to see how your body reacts to them, the benefits of whole unprocessed foods, grass-fed meats, veg etc are, I'm sure you'll agree, all firmly backed up by science.

Now I have no idea how many people have attempted or completed a W30 but it must be huge. Now when the Hartwigs see all the success and failure stories, they can see that people who do A seem to consistently get good results they're happy with, whereas people who do B either fail to complete their program or are unhappy with their results. Now this is, of course, purely anecdotal, it's not a double blind scientific study but with enough people doing it, the pattern becomes obvious and so these guidlines are added in to the W30 to give you the best possible chance of success.

Now, no-one I'm aware of has ever reported problems with cauliflower 'rice' but many, many people have reported paleofying pancakes and ending up either off the program or finishing it and diving headfirst back into unhealthy ways of eating because they haven't really changed their relationship with food.

Now, at the top of the pyramid is you, yourself and Melissa agrees SWYPO can be an individual thing as she said in another post

"It's not always easy to come up with a "yes" or "no" on the SWYPO thing... It's great that you're asking, but ultimately, you have to decide for yourself on these things that are not clear-cut. Own your own program, you know?"

At the end of the day, I would advise anyone to stick to the program 'rules' and 'guidlines' for 30 days to give yourself the best possible results you can get based on science and experience and then feel free to add in, play about, experiment with whatever you want. You'll have a good solid base to do it on.

[Sylwia Zygalo]

@Castle + @Kirsteen

I'm not sure if SWYPO is a personal thing if Melissa states that pancakes are banned, regardless of whether you had an addiction to them or not, because they could create an addiction.

[Sylwia Zygalo]

I think for the sake of my sanity, I'm just going to trust the guidelines for the next 24 days. It doesn't entirely agree with my personal philosophy to do so, but perhaps clarity will surface the longer I'm on the program.

I shall report back then! Have a lovely Sunday, all.

[Kirsteen]

@Castle + @Kirsteen

I'm not sure if SWYPO is a personal thing if Melissa states that pancakes are banned, regardless of whether you had an addiction to them or not, because they could create an addiction.

Yes, I should havve been clearer. Some things are banned and are part of the rules because of the overwhelming numbers of people who've had problems with it. Other things fall into a grey area. In those cases, I, personally, prefer to err on the side of caution. For instance I've made cauliflower rice a few times but I'm not really that taken with it so it's not a problem for me.

On the other hand I avoid kale chips like the plague. As a raw foodist I'd made them for years before I ever did a W30. I was totally addicted to them, I'd even been known to take 2 buses right across the city to the only shop I knew selling kale at that time of year. As soon as I made them I wanted to eat the lot in one go. Now the ingredients are all W30 compliant and I'm sure there may be people who would have no problem with them but for me, they spell disaster - they're my personal SWYPO.

I like your attitude, trust the guidlines, it's only another 24 days and then you can experiment with whatever you like and see how you react to it. good luck

[Moluv]

Please don't insult me by equating my "blind faith" in taking diet advice from nutritionists with that of religion- for which there is zero supporting science. The creators of the program have ample science to back up the backbone of their program, which is the list of foods to avoid. The other parts of the program (no paleofying) are based on their clinical experience, which is perfectly acceptable behavior IMO. As the rules state "don't recreate banned foods with approved ingredients" THAT IS PERFECTLY LOGICAL AS A RULE FOR A DIET PLAN. If they had no advice based on how actual people behave in real life scenarios that would be highly suspicious.

You can eat your pancakes, they are technically compliant. But you will never be able to get approval for it on the forum- which is a cult. A very happy, healthy cult.

[Moluv]

Your original question was "do you think I am breaking the rules" so it seemed like you were asking for opinions.

I agree 100% that there is much flip-flopping on this issue and that in itself is highly illogical. However, the original rule states "no recreating off plan foods" and I see no problem with that as a rule. But the cherry picking of which item is or is not is a matter of personal opinion and a problematic gray area.

[Moluv]

Haha oops I only half read any of this anyways. Sorry!

[Melissa Urban]

Nksl,

Upon review (and receiving several notifications from forum members who are upset at the negativity here), I am done with this thread. We've explained this rule countless times. Countless. I have answered (thoroughly and to the best of my ability) questions about this rule here, on Facebook, and on our website. But here, in this context, I am not explaining it again, because frankly I don't think it would make a lick of difference to your attitude.

It's our program. We made it up. If you find it illogical, don't do it. Make up your own program. But I'm not about to spend any more of this community's time on this thread. And to suggest we don't listen to people who have a hard time with the program (all the free resources, time, and energy we provide and articles we write to help people through the program don't count?) - well, that's just insulting.

This thread is closed. I am sleep deprived and taking care of a newborn and only have so many hours in my day to help people who legitimately want to be helped. I plan to spend my time there.

Melissa

[Melissa Urban]

Sylwia,

I am going to respond to your original question here, because it's not your fault that things got out of hand. Eating eggs, a banana, and some olive oil is not the same as combining those ingredients into a pancake. There are studies that show that how your brain *perceives* the food influences satiation. This is often cited with liquid food (smoothies or shakes), but experientially we see this with whole foods as well, depending on how they are combined. Pancakes bring up a totally different psychological response than frying some eggs and eating a banana. And it's that psychological response that we are trying to target with the program.

You may not have an affinity for pancakes, but we find that most people who complete our program do best without any of these comfort/trigger/reminiscent-of-the-SAD-stuff-you-used-to-eat foods. So, because we need to create one program that applies to as many people as possible, we rule these Paleo recreations out.

I don't have an affinity for pancakes either, and I could eat Paleo pancakes without having it send me into a craving spiral. But the rules are the rules, and all we ask is that people follow them for 30 days. In our vast experience, this sets everyone up for the best success possible. What you choose to do after the month is up is entirely up to you.

I hope this helps to explain our position. Sorry this thread took a turn for the worse. Also, sorry I'm cranky.

Melissa