Sucralose.

[69_Stacks]

I'll begin this post by informing the reader(s) that I scrolled back to October and didn't see this topic addressed.

I read the website regarding artificial sweeteners, and the only reason I came up with for avoiding is that it "props up" sugar cravings (or something to that effect). Since the plan is to take up a ketogenic diet after the Whole30 (which permits the use of artificial sweeteners), I would like to know if there is a metabolic reason I should abstain (yes, I know it's a potential neurotoxin, but that's not my concern here).

Thanks!

[missmary]

sorry, but "I know it is a potential neurotoxin" isn't enough for you to avoid it?

 

The whole30 is all about eating foods that make you more healthy, and not eating foods that don't. Sucralose doesn't come close to making you more healthy. There is a detailed chapter in It Starts With Food regarding the body and how it responds to sugar/sweeteners, but the short of it is this: take all sugar and sweeteners out of your diet for 30 days. see how you feel. If you still want to add sucralose in afterwards, that's your choice.

[annabel]

The comments on this blog post address some of the issues around sugar and sweeteners... http://whole9life.com/2010/06/sugar-sugar-sugar/

 

It doesn't quite answer your question, but might still be an interesting read for you.

[69_Stacks]

sorry, but "I know it is a potential neurotoxin" isn't enough for you to avoid it?

No. No, it isn't. I'm not a naturopathetic, paranoid nutjob. I like evidence. There have been well over a hundred scientific studies that show sucralose is safe in small amounts. In fact, I mistook sucralose for aspartame. About my only concern is that artificial sweeteners have been linked to weight gain. I s'pose I'll find out soon enough whether or not it's an issue for me.

The whole30 is all about eating foods that make you more healthy, and not eating foods that don't. Sucralose doesn't come close to making you more healthy.

Again, there's that evidence thing. And here's something for the paranoids who think stevia is safe because it's natural: Stevia has been linked to DNA damage in relatively small amounts. Btw, cyanide is naturally occurring, too. And so is sunshine, poison ivy, formaldehyde in apples, etc. etc. I suppose it could even be suggested to anyone who can't afford to purchase meats from grass-fed animals and organic produce to not even bother with this program. After all, it might affect the end result, no?

[69_Stacks]

The comments on this blog post address some of the issues around sugar and sweeteners... http://whole9life.com/2010/06/sugar-sugar-sugar/

It doesn't quite answer your question, but might still be an interesting read for you.

Yes, I'm sure it will be. Thank you Annabel. I'll be sure to check it out now.

[missmary]

woah. for the record, I didn't say stevia was better than sucralose, or safe or unsafe. I said sucralose doesn't make you heathier. I stand by that comment. Please let me know if you have studies that say otherwise.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter much as far as the whole30 is concerned. Dallas and Melissa Hartwig have designed this program and they decided where to draw the line on many things. For example, they decided that no sweeteners would be permitted. not stevia and not sucralose. AND they concluded that protein and vegetables were a net benefit, even if they are not organic or grass fed, so they permitted those on the program.

 

If you want to follow the whole30 program, you are in the right place. If you don't, no one is going to make you do it. Go ahead and write a program that feels better for you and your context.

[69_Stacks]

woah. for the record, I didn't say stevia was better than sucralose, or safe or unsafe. I said sucralose doesn't make you heathier. I stand by that comment. Please let me know if you have studies that say otherwise.

In the end, it doesn't matter much as far as the whole30 is concerned. Dallas and Melissa Hartwig have designed this program and they decided where to draw the line on many things. For example, they decided that no sweeteners would be permitted. not stevia and not sucralose. AND they decided that protein and vegetables were a net benefit, even if they are not organic or grass fed, so they permitted those on the program.

If you want to follow the whole30 program, you are in the right place. If you don't, no one is going to make you do it. Go ahead and write a program that feels better for you and your context.

Would you please go away now? Nothing you've said has been any use to me. Thanks.

[livingseaside]

Respectfully, sucralose is an artificial sweetner - it is made in a laboratory. Consuming anything not naturally occurring is a bad idea, backed up by evidence or not.

[Vian]

to the OP: I think with the attitude you just displayed towards this program and community, you can take yourself elsewhere. You clearly don't care about the spirit of the program or giving it a fair chance, so why are you even here asking questions?

[ultrarunnergirl]

No. No, it isn't. I'm not a naturopathetic, paranoid nutjob. I like evidence. There have been well over a hundred scientific studies that show sucralose is safe in small amounts. In fact, I mistook sucralose for aspartame. About my only concern is that artificial sweeteners have been linked to weight gain. I s'pose I'll find out soon enough whether or not it's an issue for me.

Again, there's that evidence thing. And here's something for the paranoids who think stevia is safe because it's natural: Stevia has been linked to DNA damage in relatively small amounts. Btw, cyanide is naturally occurring, too. And so is sunshine, poison ivy, formaldehyde in apples, etc. etc. I suppose it could even be suggested to anyone who can't afford to purchase meats from grass-fed animals and organic produce to not even bother with this program. After all, it might affect the end result, no?

 

You might be well served to READ the book, before attacking the program on lack of evidence and other things that are addressed and well-covered within.

 

The forum's purpose is not to sell you on whether or not you should do a Whole30. You need to figure that out on your own.

[Robin Strathdee]

69_Stacks:

 

While I appreciate your curiosity and pursuit of further information on why the Whole30 program rules are the way they are, the disrespectful way you've addressed our community and our moderators is absolutely unacceptable. We can help you find the information you're looking for, but we will not tolerate antagonistic and, frankly, childish behavior when you don't get the answer (or, I suspect, the arguments) you came here looking for.

 

There are more than 100 scientific studies referenced in It Starts With Food. I'd encourage you to pick up a copy and take a peek through those.  If you'd like to continue participating in our forums respectfully you're welcome to do that. Otherwise, I'd suggest you find another place to spend your time. 

[1Maryann]

Thank you, Robin.  One of the things I love most about this forum is how polite and supportive everyone is.  We don't always agree on everything, but we respect each other.  I know there are a lot of places on the internet where the tone is far different, so maybe that's been the OP's experience, but a rude and combative stance isn't helpful to any of us.

[69_Stacks]

First of all, I'm sorry if anyone was offended to my replies to missmary.  I simply found her replies to be unhelpful. She didn't answer the question I came to ask. Since you're all friends, I guess I interpreted her replies as unhelpful only because I was on the receiving end. She also implied that I addressed her in particular with my comment about stevia.  I'm sure there are no "naturopathetic, paranoid nutjobs" here, but I'm sure they occasionally visit and point out everything that's wrong with this program since you're not bolting down pots of quinoa. That's what I meant by that.

 

I'm assuming that the purpose of this forum is to have questions answered. Is everyone who visits this forum implored to purchase a book when a question is asked?

 

As far as animals which are not grass fed and contain loads of chemicals and non-organic foods containg loads of pesticides (all made in laboratories), why are they permitted on this plan? Surely they're not good for people, especially since they contain ingredients that are known to cause adverse health effects.  Why is sucralose so different? Does the book address why?

[Tina R]

Here are some downloads that may be helpful. http://whole30.com/pdf-downloads/ Please do not shoot the messenger if you don't receive the answer you are looking for. Most of the information in the book is available on the whole30 website, you just have to search for it and read it. You do not need to purchase the book in order to do the whole30.

 

Many people can't afford grass fed beef or pastured chickens. In my area 1 pastured chicken is $25 dollars. Whole30 provides alternatives that can still give you some good results even if you don't have an unlimited bank account. They also explain very clearly what to do if you can't find or can't afford pastured chickens or grass fed beef with their good, better, best recommendations in the whole30 shopping list.

 

The rules of the whole30 are very strict, there are many other paleo diets that are not. You may want to investigate other alternatives that may better suit your needs. Check out Mark's Daily Apple regarding the Primal Diet. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/whats-the-difference-between-primal-and-paleo/#axzz2s0NZLRsh. Good Luck in your pursuit of better health.

[jent103]

Is everyone who visits this forum implored to purchase a book when a question is asked?

 

As far as animals which are not grass fed and contain loads of chemicals and non-organic foods containg loads of pesticides (all made in laboratories), why are they permitted on this plan? Surely they're not good for people, especially since they contain ingredients that are known to cause adverse health effects.  Why is sucralose so different? Does the book address why?

 

Re: the book - definitely not. The creators of the program have stated that the information needed to follow the program will always be free and on the web site (scroll about halfway down here), and they have followed through with that. The site has the plan and additional resources, there are blog posts with rationales for a lot of the decisions about what's in and out, and there are hundreds of additional questions asked here which are answered without directing anyone to a book. But you asked for references and evidence, and the book goes into all of that in detail. If you don't want to spend money on it, my library has a copy - perhaps yours does too. It does have a section on artificial sweeteners and how they work with hormones and our brains.

 

Regarding the less-than-perfect options you mentioned - many people can't afford grass-fed/pastured/organic everything, and some people just don't have access where they live. So in the Whole30 resources there are suggestions on where to prioritize your grocery budget, starting with the quality of your meat; if, say, free-range organic chicken is still out of reach, it states to buy the leanest cuts available, because the toxins would be mainly stored in the fat. To me the difference between a conventionally raised chicken breast and sucralose is that the former is still providing nutrition, even if it isn't the best source. It's hard to argue that sucralose has any actual benefit (even if you believe it isn't actively harmful), and Whole30 is all about eating things that provide a net gain in your health.

[lyndy]

I understood the prohibition on artificial sweetners to be twofold..in part because they psychologically promote the idea that sweets are part of a healthy diet, and continue old habits, and in part because they are processed and lab manufactured..which in a whole foods natural setting is inappropriate.

[69_Stacks]

sorry, but "I know it is a potential neurotoxin" isn't enough for you to avoid it?

 

The whole30 is all about eating foods that make you more healthy, and not eating foods that don't. Sucralose doesn't come close to making you more healthy. There is a detailed chapter in It Starts With Food regarding the body and how it responds to sugar/sweeteners, but the short of it is this: take all sugar and sweeteners out of your diet for 30 days. see how you feel. If you still want to add sucralose in afterwards, that's your choice.

 

 

I owe you an apology, missmary. I would have sent you a private apology except that since I was publicly mean I should humble myself and publicly apologize.  The bottom line is that I wasn't ready to accept what you had to say -- essentially I was looking for a permission slip to indulge. I'm very, very sorry for being a jerk.

[69_Stacks]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful followup replies and links.  Omitting artificial sweeteners is a good idea if for no other reason than eliminating one more unnecessary chemical from my diet. Having examined my situation truthfully, I'm really, really toxic. I've been drinking a 2-liter of diet soda every day for probably a decade (containing aspartame, no less).  Unstable blood sugar has wreaked havoc on everything good and right with my metabolism.  Every day my sugar crashes determine the type of food I eat to pacify them (which is generally something processed and carb laden, but sometimes just straight up sugar if I need something to enter my bloodstream fast).  I'm fat, but I'm not diabetic (yet). If I drank regular soda for the past decade there's no question that I would be. 

 

Before I found this website last night the plan was to go on a ketogenic diet within the next week.  But as I lay in bed late last night surfing the web, I happened across this site.  I thought the plan seemed to be ideal for regaining some semblance of normalcy/stability in my diet prior to going keto.  But THEN I saw the part about eliminating artificial sweeteners. How Nazi, I thought. I can give up dairy, I can give up legumes, I can give up sugar -- I can even give up soda -- but I must have a sweetened beverage at all times (the sad truth is that I'm a fiend -- I wake up in the middle of the night regularly just to chug). The plan was to alternate between water and green tea sweetened with Splenda when I went keto. I still plan to do that when I go keto, but I can grudgingly sacrifice sweetener for 30 days. Maybe I won't want it anymore like mary said.  I really don't see it, but surely my choice of fluids will evolve into cleaner choices than I make now.

[Tina R]

69_Stacks - We all have diets that are not ideal. Some of us are addicted to coffee, chocolate, red wine, sugar, etc. We are all trying to improve ourselves even though the whole30 can seem daunting. When I was told that I should give up gluten and dairy I was frustrated. I didn't want to be one of THOSE people. I have to say that I do feel better, not awesome but better being gluten free and dairy free. Although I do not drink diet soda I used to have sugar in my coffee. It took a long time for me to drink coffee without sugar. Now it is too sweet with sugar. Thank you for your honesty. If you decide to do the whole30 it will be hard. We are all here to support each other and since there are so many of us you are sure to find the support you need to make it through. Good Luck

[Marceeruns]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful followup replies and links.  Omitting artificial sweeteners is a good idea if for no other reason than eliminating one more unnecessary chemical from my diet. Having examined my situation truthfully, I'm really, really toxic. I've been drinking a 2-liter of diet soda every day for probably a decade (containing aspartame, no less).  Unstable blood sugar has wreaked havoc on everything good and right with my metabolism.  Every day my sugar crashes determine the type of food I eat to pacify them (which is generally something processed and carb laden, but sometimes just straight up sugar if I need something to enter my bloodstream fast).  I'm fat, but I'm not diabetic (yet). If I drank regular soda for the past decade there's no question that I would be. 

 

Before I found this website last night the plan was to go on a ketogenic diet within the next week.  But as I lay in bed late last night surfing the web, I happened across this site.  I thought the plan seemed to be ideal for regaining some semblance of normalcy/stability in my diet prior to going keto.  But THEN I saw the part about eliminating artificial sweeteners. How Nazi, I thought. I can give up dairy, I can give up legumes, I can give up sugar -- I can even give up soda -- but I must have a sweetened beverage at all times (the sad truth is that I'm a fiend -- I wake up in the middle of the night regularly just to chug). The plan was to alternate between water and green tea sweetened with Splenda when I went keto. I still plan to do that when I go keto, but I can grudgingly sacrifice sweetener for 30 days. Maybe I won't want it anymore like mary said.  I really don't see it, but surely my choice of fluids will evolve into cleaner choices than I make now.

I think you will be happily surprised if you can do the Whole 30 completely, the way it's designed.. and if you want to be surrounded with supportive, positive people to help you every step, you've come to the right place!! You may try coconut water with a bit of lime or something like that to help you get off the sweetened drinks.. Anyhow, best of luck!

[jent103]

We've definitely all been there in one way or another, whether it's sugar or cheese or wine or whatever. I was pissed off when I was convinced that I needed to try Whole30, because I really didn't want to! But it was the right choice for me. I'm insulin resistant, controlled with metformin. I haven't had my blood sugar tested since my Whole30 (and since it's in the normal range with the metformin anyway, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell much), but I can tell you without a doubt that my blood sugar (and with it, my moods) are so much more stable when I eat this way. I used to love Coke Zero - not as strong a habit as yours, it sounds like, but I missed it for awhile. But now I don't even want it.

 

As the others said - if you decide this is what you want to do, it will be tough, but there are tons of resources and support here! And if the rules start to get to you: it's only 30 days. After that you can do whatever you want.

[1Maryann]

69_Stacks,

 

My opinion of you has increased dramatically this morning.  Public apologies are never easy, and it takes a big person to admit they were out of line.  I understand that much of it was due to trying to hold on to one of your 'comforts'.  I tend to be dismissive of people who say they want to do the program, but then argue about the need for one restriction or another, but on another thread, someone offered an insight I hadn't considered.  She said she thinks that sometimes it is discouraging to read that things people have been eating for ages because they were told they were 'healthy' are now off-limits.  She sees it more of a "Isn't there anything I've been doing right?"  I think you probably fall into this category.  I did, too.  I drank tons of that chemical concoction known as diet soda, because "they" said it was harmless and a better alternative than real soda.

 

This program requires just as much of a mental shift as it does a food shift, but I highly recommend it.  We have lots of people here who have gotten off meds, gotten their blood sugar under control after years of anguish, and found they have lost their aches and pains.  It is truly amazing what happens when you fuel your system with the things it needs instead of the processed, concocted 'foods' we consider the mainstay of the Standard American Diet (SAD).

 

Good luck.  We're here if you need us.  Just commit fully to 30 days, even if the restrictions don't make sense to you right now.  Just do it, 100%.  If you don't see enough improvement in 30 days to warrant longer-term changes, that's okay too.  It may not be for everyone.  But you will never know what it can do for you if you don't take the first step.

[JJB]

My opinion of you has increased dramatically this morning.  

 

+1

 

I am a reformed diet soda junkie myself, and just being realistic here...30 days of clean eating/drinking likely won't "fix" this for you. But it all begins with a mental shift, where you decide something you're doing may not be working for you, and you're open to a change. It sounds like you are there now. Good luck! I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how much better you feel without the soda every day, although it might take getting on and off the wagon a few times to fully realize it (that's what happened for me).

[69_Stacks]

My apology is genuine. I'm not one of those people who are mannerless and don't know how to say please, thank you, or apologize.  I'm not so much of a coward that I can't see when I've been out of line and not apologize for it.

 

I'm glad there are people here who can relate to the diet soda thing.  It's crazy.  I wait for sales and I go and buy every single 2 liter on the shelf.  And if the shelves at my local grocery stores are empty, I know where their stashes are, lol. I made up my mind a couple of weeks ago that when my current supply was out I wasn't going to buy anymore.  And so it is; I used up the last of my soda this morning.  Now I'm onto green tea and Splenda.

 

I decided that I'm not going to do the whole Whole30 right now (really, it's not a sucralose thing ;-).  I've done a ton of research and made a lot of preparations for the keto diet.  I even mail ordered my ketone blood testing strips from Canada (they cost $5 apiece here!).  It was just happenstance that I came across this site.  I'm really intrigued, though, and for the most part it makes perfect sense to me, especially eliminating dairy, which unfortunately can't be done with keto (it probably could, but it would be hard to get enough fat and I would be eating bacon by the package).  8 years ago my Mom had a double bypass and I made up my mind that I would never eat ribs again, and I haven't (it was one of her dietary staples).  But just the other day I found myself buying a pack of baby back ribs.  At least a third of the pack is fat. I really don't know how long I'll last eating that way.  And if I don't, I will investigate Whole30 as an alternative.

 

Losing weight is my primary goal, and any good habits that I acquire in the process will be a happy bonus.  I understand how energy is burned on the keto diet, but I don't fully understand how it works on the Whole30.  I haven't read the whole site though.  I do understand that the Whole30's main focus isn't weight loss.  That being said, if I did it for 30 days, I would defeat the purpose by going keto right afterward and eating artificially sweetened cheesecake.  The Whole30 is something I would want to maintain long term, but not until I reach my desired weight on another plan.  Whole30 guidelines seem to include an appropriate amount of protein for one's body weight, lowish carbs, and no particular fat restrictions.  If Whole30 doesn't require moderate protein intake, that could be a problem.  There also doesn't seem to be a high enough percentage of fat to use as energy.  It's really hard to get enough fat on a ketogenic diet to lose weight, let alone one that eliminates dairy.  Knowing that the body turns to carbs for energy first, then fat, and then protein, it seems that if there isn't enough fat consumed on Whole30 then the body will turn to protein, which there would need to be a surplus of and which would be hard on the kidneys.  I'm really on a weight loss mission, and once I've achieved my goals in that department, I could totally do the Whole30 long term as opposed to going Paleo.  I can do without dairy, which is the most appealing thing about this diet.  Giving dairy and grains the boot. 

 

Anyway, I'm sure I need to read the book for further insight, and I will definitely buy it when I near my weight loss goal. I'll then decide whether Whole30 is right for me and whether I can sustain it (or its basic principles) long-term. 

 

Thanks very much for all the suggestions and support!  I'm always really grateful when someone takes the time to write a post.  Expression of gratitude is an important personal value and I feel bad that I temporarily lost sight of it.

 

Peace!  :-)

[Tina R]

My apology is genuine. I'm not one of those people who are mannerless and don't know how to say please, thank you, or apologize.  I'm not so much of a coward that I can't see when I've been out of line and not apologize for it.

 

I'm glad there are people here who can relate to the diet soda thing.  It's crazy.  I wait for sales and I go and buy every single 2 liter on the shelf.  And if the shelves at my local grocery stores are empty, I know where their stashes are, lol. I made up my mind a couple of weeks ago that when my current supply was out I wasn't going to buy anymore.  And so it is; I used up the last of my soda this morning.  Now I'm onto green tea and Splenda.

 

I decided that I'm not going to do the whole Whole30 right now (really, it's not a sucralose thing ;-).  I've done a ton of research and made a lot of preparations for the keto diet.  I even mail ordered my ketone blood testing strips from Canada (they cost $5 apiece here!).  It was just happenstance that I came across this site.  I'm really intrigued, though, and for the most part it makes perfect sense to me, especially eliminating dairy, which unfortunately can't be done with keto (it probably could, but it would be hard to get enough fat and I would be eating bacon by the package).  8 years ago my Mom had a double bypass and I made up my mind that I would never eat ribs again, and I haven't (it was one of her dietary staples).  But just the other day I found myself buying a pack of baby back ribs.  At least a third of the pack is fat. I really don't know how long I'll last eating that way.  And if I don't, I will investigate Whole30 as an alternative.

 

Losing weight is my primary goal, and any good habits that I acquire in the process will be a happy bonus.  I understand how energy is burned on the keto diet, but I don't fully understand how it works on the Whole30.  I haven't read the whole site though.  I do understand that the Whole30's main focus isn't weight loss.  That being said, if I did it for 30 days, I would defeat the purpose by going keto right afterward and eating artificially sweetened cheesecake.  The Whole30 is something I would want to maintain long term, but not until I reach my desired weight on another plan.  Whole30 guidelines seem to include an appropriate amount of protein for one's body weight, lowish carbs, and no particular fat restrictions.  If Whole30 doesn't require moderate protein intake, that could be a problem.  There also doesn't seem to be a high enough percentage of fat to use as energy.  It's really hard to get enough fat on a ketogenic diet to lose weight, let alone one that eliminates dairy.  Knowing that the body turns to carbs for energy first, then fat, and then protein, it seems that if there isn't enough fat consumed on Whole30 then the body will turn to protein, which there would need to be a surplus of and which would be hard on the kidneys.  I'm really on a weight loss mission, and once I've achieved my goals in that department, I could totally do the Whole30 long term as opposed to going Paleo.  I can do without dairy, which is the most appealing thing about this diet.  Giving dairy and grains the boot. 

 

Anyway, I'm sure I need to read the book for further insight, and I will definitely buy it when I near my weight loss goal. I'll then decide whether Whole30 is right for me and whether I can sustain it (or its basic principles) long-term. 

 

Thanks very much for all the suggestions and support!  I'm always really grateful when someone takes the time to write a post.  Expression of gratitude is an important personal value and I feel bad that I temporarily lost sight of it.

 

Peace!  :-)

Good Luck. I think we all know our own bodies and have that intuition about what will work best for us. It sounds like you have done your research and are ready to take control of your health. I don't know if there are specific kinds of dairy that are required on this diet but you might want to experiment to see which ones work with your body. For example I can't drink milk or eat ice cream but I can eat raw cheddar cheese without too many issues. Also I am not an expert but I understand that you are concerned about eating enough fat for energy on either diet. What about the fat that your body already has stored? From what I understand when your body doesn't have any carbs to burn it starts burning body fat for energy so it seems that both of these diets will benefit you in that way. I think Whole30 refers to that as the carb flu because while you are waiting for your body to make the switch you feel like you have the flu. I wish you well in your pursuit of health and would love it if you will come back and post an update to let us know how this other diet works for you.