Whole30 hungry wife! Help!

[dead_poet]

Hi Whole30-ers. I have a question and I'd love some input. Please!

Some quick background. I'm Kelly (a human male), 31 and started Whole30 at 170-175 lbs. My wife is 30 and started Whole30 at around 150. We are doing the Whole30 for the first time. We're currently on day 17.

Here's her (and, as a result, my) problem: she's hungry ALL THE TIME. I'm preparing meals that are different and filling and we're eating good-sized portions. However that doesn't help the hunger (which has a side-effect of..um.. unhappiness). For example: tonight for supper I made a 4.5-lb pork pot roast with all sorts of veggies. It was delicious. She ate a normal portion. 30-minutes later she was hungry and was about to go to town on some more cantaloupe (she already had quite a few before supper). I was brave/stupid and stopped her because I know we're not supposed to eat a ton of fruit and she didn't want olives or more hazelnuts. She's also a big lover of sugar and I'm pretty sure the fruit is her way of trying to substitute (bad, I know). Help! Is this just her body adjusting to considerably reduced carbs? Again, help!

Additionally,

I know you're not supposed to weigh yourself, but she's discouraged because she had a doctor's appointment and she saw the weight. After two weeks she hasn't lost much (if anything) and she would like to drop the lbs. I asked her if she feels better after doing this and the only positives she's reported back is no longer feeling bloated and being "regular" without needing to take the fiber powder. She's already looking forward to reincorporating things.

Some other notes if others can comment.

1. We're both lacking energy.

2. She's celiac

3. I'm a hard-gaining gym rat (started the diet weighing about 170-175 with a goal of gaining 10 pounds of muscle) and while I haven't weighed myself, I know I'm losing weight. And strength. At the gym my numbers are plummeting. Needless to say, this diet is counterproductive to my own goals, which is frustrating.

Your expert help would be greatly appreciated!

-Kelly the Concerned Husband of a hungry sugar lady

[Tom Denham]

The secret to not being hungry is to eat plenty of protein, fat, and veggies at least 3 times per day and maybe 4 times (or 5 times). You cannot always compensate for a light meal early by eating heavy later. So what your wife eats at supper may not be enough. She needs to eat good at breakfast and lunch too.

Good portions means at least 1 palm-size piece of meat, a thumb-size of fat, and the rest of the plate filled with veggies. Anyone who is hungry should eat up to 2 palm-size pieces of meat per meal.

Anyone who is having frequent hunger feelings should not snack on fruit, nuts, veggies, coconut butter, etc. They should eat another full meal - protein, fat, and veggies.

Another thing to pay attention to is hydration. Not drinking enough water can make you feel hungry. Many of us could double how much water we drink without a problem.

Gaining 10 pounds of muscle in 30 days is unrealistic for a hard-gaining gym rat. It takes a while to get your food dialed in properly and gaining muscle may require you to exercise a lot less than you currently do.

[Rosencrantz1]

I would agree with Tom - she needs to eat more. I think, in particular, she should focus on getting more fat in her diet. Protein too, but definitely more fat. Although Dallas and Melissa don't talk a ton about macro ratios, if you read The Primal Blueprint, Mark Sisson advocates 50-60% of calories from fat. Having enough fat in the diet is key for satiety, energy, and weight loss, IMO.

[dead_poet]

I should've specified that gaining 10-pounds of muscle is a long-term goal (6-12 months). Not something accomplished in 30 days! Exercising less to gain more muscle? That part confuses me.

Back to my wife. I ensure good-sized portions for each meal. Breakfast today was breakfast "pizza" filled with sausage, tomatoes, garlic, red onions and olives. Lunch today is leftover pot roast and veggies. Supper will be grilled pork chops with roasted butternut squash and onions. I do not believe portion size is the root of the problem.

I hadn't considered her need of an additional full meal. Is that really ok? I am concerned with her hydration, though. I'm not sure she drinks nearly enough throughout the day. Perhaps a "snack" or meal between breakfast and lunch (or lunch and dinner) could be something as easy as carrots and sliced deli chicken (whole30 approved, of course)?

[dead_poet]

What are some things I can do to incorporate more good fat other than eating nuts (olives?) because that's not a good idea?

[missmary]

olives are a fine idea, I think the concern was "snacking" as opposed to a more balanced "mini-meal" approach.The whole30 is not a calorie restrictive program, and I think both of you should be eating more (you, to get closer to your goals for muscle mass, her to address this hunger issue). Dallas has done a bunch of work on "bulking" so you should search around the wholle9 website for his suggestions.

Definitely incorporate more fat, less fruit. Fruit will do nothing but make your wife even more hungry.

Bottom line: if you are hungry or losing weight you don't want to lose, eat more. Hormonally it would be better to get it in three meals, but if you can't do that, add another balanced "meal" in-between.

Edit to add: on weight loss, patience is key. Sometimes it takes a while for hormones, energy, etc. to balance out to a place where weight loss is possible. It is worth it to stick it out, even if pounds don't come off right away.

[djoyce]

Oh captain, my captain

Maybe I should not comment because I have not been there and done that. I start tomorrow, but I have been eating close to this way for some time now. I also follow Mark Sisson and more fat ratios in your food is good. We have been brainwashed by the popular media that fat is bad... but really it is not just good by essential. If you reduce carbs (e.g. eliminate grains, legumes, sugars), you need to gain calories from another macro-nutrient and fat (healthy of course) is critical.

I keep a bottle of avocado oil in my desk drawer and drizzle it on salads and veggies for some good fats. Many of the successful people here use avocado as a regular staple in their meals. I do love olives and olive oil (EV) when possible. If protein stays the same and carbs are reduced, you may be eating a fair volume of food with veggies being high but they are nutrient dense but calorie deficient. You end up on a long term calorie reduction if you don't tweak the healthy fats. Addition of one tablespoon of fish oil, olive oil or avocado oil to a meal (dressing, sauce, drizzle) adds about 120 calories.

As your body (and you wife's) switches to more fat burning as fuel, you need to provide fat to maintain weight and limit hunger. Adding fat sounds bad but sometimes trusting the program is all we have to hold onto. As you are witnessing, being hungry is miserable. 30 days is a long time to be miserable.

I read in another post that Tom (moderator) had extra meals (Protein, veggies and heatlhy fat) for a long time before cutting down to only three a day. Snacking, on the other hand is frowned upon (if not meals or mini-meals). Happiness (as you have highlighted) is key.

Once you adjust to paleo eating, (even as strict at Whole 30) your body will adjust but it can take some time. Last night I had Salmon with clarified butter and steamed broccoli. In my past, this would never be enough to keep me happy (rice, pasta or dessert side dish was essential) but your gut and your body will adjust over time to the new and better foods!

Cheers

DJ

[Rosencrantz1]

You can always add fats for cooking - ghee/clarified butter, coconut oil, olive oil. Avocado, olives, and cashews are all good sources of fat as well. No, you don't want to overdo the nuts, but a handful of cashews with dinner should be fine. Make sure you are picking well-sourced meat and don't be afraid of the fat.

Oh, and guacamole.

For breakfast this morning I had 4 eggs, scrambled with two tablespoons of coconut oil, about 3/4 of a cup of frozen spinach, and two slices of Applegate Farms Roast Beef. I spooned a tablespoon or so of spicy guacamole from Trader Joe's on the top.

[dead_poet]

Thanks for the input you guys! I suppose I need suggestions on fat-rich "mini-meals." How does something like this sound:

Leafy salad with grilled chicken (or some kind of deli meat), sliced almonds, chopped hard-boiled egg and drizzled with a little avocado oil?

Would it be best to consume this at 10 (we eat Meal 1 at about 6 a.m.) or 3? Those are the "hunger periods" for her. Or have whatever this "meal" is good-sized and eat half at 10 and half at 3?

Keep the advice coming, guys. This is a great help in my survival.

[Rosencrantz1]

Well, I would plug your salad into something like FitDay and see how much fat is actually in it. I have a large salad for lunch pretty much every day. I have lettuce, mixed veggies, cherry tomatoes, a whole chicken breast, olives, pine nuts, about a quarter of an avocado, and a good dose of homemade dressing. I don't drizzle anything - I pour it on liberally. And I often have a sliced apple with Almond Butter on the side.

[dead_poet]

Well, I would plug your salad into something like FitDay and see how much fat is actually in it. I have a large salad for lunch pretty much every day. I have lettuce, mixed veggies, cherry tomatoes, a whole chicken breast, olives, pine nuts, about a quarter of an avocado, and a good dose of homemade dressing. I don't drizzle anything - I pour it on liberally. And I often have a sliced apple with Almond Butter on the side.

Okay, a heavy drizzle. A rain of oil, if you will. What's your homemade dressing consist of?

I didn't think almond butter was whole30 compliant? Maybe it is if it doesn't have honey or sugar?

I've found that I love kalamata olives! Been using them in all sorts of things. Could add them to the salad too to help increase fat.

[Rosencrantz1]

Our almond butter is unsalted, just ground up almonds.

[Rosencrantz1]

My wife has a couple dressing recipes she makes; not entirely sure what's in them. I think one is homemade, dairy-free basil pesto and olive oil with some spices.

[djoyce]

I am pretty plain on my dressings, I keep a bottle of Avocado Oil (EV) and a bottle of Balsamic Vinegar at work and another set (olive oil and Balsamic) at home. I "rain" my oil and balsamic right on the salad before I add my protein (mix of chicken and steak today). This saves me taking dressing to and from work each day.

As a side note, I just bought more balsamic before I decided to do Whole 30 and I checked it yesterday and it contains sulfites. I went to my local grocery store and no sulfite free Balsamic to be found. I have ordered sulfite free Balsamic online but I will need to do something different (I start W30 tomorrow) until my two bottles arrive. Always have to watch those labels!!!

Cheers

DJ

[dead_poet]

I am pretty plain on my dressings, I keep a bottle of Avocado Oil (EV) and a bottle of Balsamic Vinegar at work and another set (olive oil and Balsamic) at home. I "rain" my oil and balsamic right on the salad before I add my protein (mix of chicken and steak today). This saves me taking dressing to and from work each day.

As a side note, I just bought more balsamic before I decided to do Whole 30 and I checked it yesterday and it contains sulfites. I went to my local grocery store and no sulfite free Balsamic to be found. I have ordered sulfite free Balsamic online but I will need to do something different (I start W30 tomorrow) until my two bottles arrive. Always have to watch those labels!!!

Cheers

DJ

I've seen some labels that say "naturally occurring sulfites." What the heck are these?

[djoyce]

The fermentation for Balsamic Vinegar generates some sulfites. It cannot be helped or removed. Some manufacturers add additional sulfites as an extra preservative. I believe (but I am still learning) that the Sulfite free vinegars actually mean "no added sulfites".

Naturally occurring also means "no added but will not be sulfite free". This is good enough for me. Another non-sulfite alternative is Chinese Black Rice vinegar. I don't know how much it costs and I believe that I read that any vinegar (including from rice) is Whole 30 compliant but I cannot remember where I read that!

I have been researching a bit today on this because I use a fair amount of Balsamic (and because I don't feel like doing my work either).

Cheers

DJ

[Tom Denham]

I ate 5 to 6 meals per day in 2010 when I started doing the Whole30 thing. I gradually worked down to 5 meals and only got to 3 meals a few months ago. I wasn't trying to get down to 3 meals before, but I gradually moved that way and then got motivated when I read It Starts With Food. I work from home, so when I eat is easy.

Ideally we would have 4 to 5 hours between meals. My take on that is to eat enough to last 4 or 5 hours, but you can eat earlier if you are hungry or you have a limited window of opportunity.

One way to get more fat is to eat sausage or a fatty cut of lamb or red meat instead of chicken. There are days when chicken almost can't satisfy me, but red meat can.

I add fat by mashing an avocado in a bowl with a fork. I always add a little lime juice to the mash and you can add some raw onion and spices if you like. Ripe avocados mash easily.

[dead_poet]

I just started getting into avocados and guacamole last year after many years of avoidance because I only had prepackaged stuff. Like I was turned off of sushi for a similar reason (the only experience I had for many years was grocery store sushi). Now...I'm hooked.

Here's what I think I'm going to try: making a large batch of salad with nuts and shredded carrots, avocados, kalamata olives (and maybe broccoli) for the week. Every day before leaving for work (or the night before) I'll cook up some kind of meat to rain down upon the greens prior to eating. Then add some chopped hard-boiled eggs and top (probably in its own container) some kind of homemade dressing (or straight avocado oil). This will be an additional meal for the both of us. Doesn't sound too hard if done kind of all at once and shouldn't be much more of an added expense. Plus, it should have protein and some more fat.

Good plan to help ease the hunger demons?

[dead_poet]

In related news, over the last two weeks I've discovered I'm having a very difficult time getting to sleep. Has anyone else experienced this? Before starting Whole30 I'd fall asleep within 10 minutes. There have been several nights I just can't fall asleep for 2-3 hours. Is this common?

[Tom Denham]

I should've specified that gaining 10-pounds of muscle is a long-term goal (6-12 months). Not something accomplished in 30 days! Exercising less to gain more muscle? That part confuses me.

 

Muscles grow when they are resting. People who exercise frequently make it difficult for muscle mass to develop because they are constantly breaking it down. I was first introduced to this concept by a personal trainer who wanted me to stop long distance running to maximize muscle growth from strength training. He told me I would see faster results from my lifting three days per week if I would replace all the running I was doing with walking. He did not want me to lift more than 3 days and he did not want me doing anything more intense than walking for "cardio." More recently I learned how important limiting training can be from Geoff Neupert in his book Kettlebell Muscle. He warns readers that it is critically important not to add additional exercise on top of the three workouts per week that he prescribes to maximize muscle gains. I followed his program for 3 months and really did become a lot stronger and bigger working out a lot less than I was accustomed to working. The secret was intensity. His workouts demand very focused, intense work for brief periods and then lots of rest and food.