NY2LA2MONTREAL Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I was wondering if these pickles would be considered compliant... Here are the ingredients straight from the website Ingredients Cucumbers, water, white vinegar, potassium chloride, salt, dehydrated garlic, calcium chloride, polysorbate 80, seasonings. May contain mustard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators ladyshanny Posted September 2, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 2, 2015 These are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY2LA2MONTREAL Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 These are fine. Thanks. I like these....and now that I am making my own mayo -- adding a little tomato paste and chopped pickles -- VOILA Russian or Thousand Island Dressing. Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch55 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 If you make your own mayo, why not make your own pickles??? That is the only thing that bugs me about this program... All these additives that can be very harmful are compliant... "Clinical studies have shown darbepoetin alfa (polysorbate 80) to increase the risk of serious side effects (eg, blood clots, stroke, heart attack, heart failure) and death in some cases. It has also been shown to shorten overall survival and/or increase the risk of tumor growth or recurrence in patients with certain types of cancer."... http://www.drugs.com/cdi/darbepoetin-alfa-polysorbate-80.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY2LA2MONTREAL Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 If you make your own mayo, why not make your own pickles??? That is the only thing that bugs me about this program... All these additives that can be very harmful are compliant... "Clinical studies have shown darbepoetin alfa (polysorbate 80) to increase the risk of serious side effects (eg, blood clots, stroke, heart attack, heart failure) and death in some cases. It has also been shown to shorten overall survival and/or increase the risk of tumor growth or recurrence in patients with certain types of cancer."... http://www.drugs.com/cdi/darbepoetin-alfa-polysorbate-80.html Hi Mitch, Haven't seen you in a while.....thanks for the input...do you have a recipe for pickles???? Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saree_maree Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Polysorbate 80 is an emulsifier added to the drug darbepoetin alfa (brand name Aranesp) to stabilize it (much the same way as it is added to pickles and ice cream and many other food and drug products). Aranesp is an injection given to patients with end-stage renal disease who have chronic anemia to stimulate red blood cell production, and the side effects you mention are related to the drug and not the emulsifier/preservative. Just wanted to clarify that your pickles aren't going to give you blood clots or a stroke. It's definitely true that Aranesp might, though! That being said, polysorbate 80 is unnecessary in your diet, you can definitely buy pickles without it (http://bubbies.com/kosher_dills) and making your own is easy and fun too (http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/12704-kosher-pickles-the-right-way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators ladyshanny Posted September 3, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 3, 2015 If you make your own mayo, why not make your own pickles??? That is the only thing that bugs me about this program... All these additives that can be very harmful are compliant... I somewhat agree with you, Mitch. Personally I would not eat those pickles because there are options in my grocery store that have less chemicals and I try not to eat things with a long list of scary sounding stuff. It's not a program that requires you to remove every single chemical from your foods although lots of people naturally move that way anyway. In order to make the program accessible to as many people as possible, things like polysorbate 80 were not called out. Just because it's not called out as off limits doesn't mean it's a best choice though; that gets left up to the individual to do research and make their own decisions. Remember, what is called out on the Whole30 is disruptive either to the gut or to the spirit (sugar/alcohol)........they couldn't possibly call out every stabilizer and food additive that has the potential to cause stroke/cancer/heart disease, people simply wouldn't do the program. You're free to leave all this stuff out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY2LA2MONTREAL Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Polysorbate 80 is an emulsifier added to the drug darbepoetin alfa (brand name Aranesp) to stabilize it (much the same way as it is added to pickles and ice cream and many other food and drug products). Aranesp is an injection given to patients with end-stage renal disease who have chronic anemia to stimulate red blood cell production, and the side effects you mention are related to the drug and not the emulsifier/preservative. Just wanted to clarify that your pickles aren't going to give you blood clots or a stroke. It's definitely true that Aranesp might, though! That being said, polysorbate 80 is unnecessary in your diet, you can definitely buy pickles without it (http://bubbies.com/kosher_dills) and making your own is easy and fun too (http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/12704-kosher-pickles-the-right-way). Polysorbate 80 is an emulsifier added to the drug darbepoetin alfa (brand name Aranesp) to stabilize it (much the same way as it is added to pickles and ice cream and many other food and drug products). Aranesp is an injection given to patients with end-stage renal disease who have chronic anemia to stimulate red blood cell production, and the side effects you mention are related to the drug and not the emulsifier/preservative. Just wanted to clarify that your pickles aren't going to give you blood clots or a stroke. It's definitely true that Aranesp might, though! That being said, polysorbate 80 is unnecessary in your diet, you can definitely buy pickles without it (http://bubbies.com/kosher_dills) and making your own is easy and fun too (http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/12704-kosher-pickles-the-right-way). I love this forum.... Saree thanks for the info and recipe but......I think I will look for bubbie's if I can find them in Montreal. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlaccini Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Tau has Bubbie's And I think I've seen them in the refrigerated section at Loblaws - near the deli meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch55 Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Polysorbate 80 is an emulsifier added to the drug darbepoetin alfa (brand name Aranesp) to stabilize it (much the same way as it is added to pickles and ice cream and many other food and drug products). Aranesp is an injection given to patients with end-stage renal disease who have chronic anemia to stimulate red blood cell production, and the side effects you mention are related to the drug and not the emulsifier/preservative. Just wanted to clarify that your pickles aren't going to give you blood clots or a stroke. It's definitely true that Aranesp might, though! That being said, polysorbate 80 is unnecessary in your diet, you can definitely buy pickles without it (http://bubbies.com/kosher_dills) and making your own is easy and fun too (http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/12704-kosher-pickles-the-right-way). Okay, what part of Aranesp is the danger then??? The Polysorbate 80 or the salt / sodium components??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saree_maree Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Hi Mitch, I'm not a pharmacologist, but I can tell you that Aranesp is a synthetic form of a naturally occurring human hormone called erythropoeitin that is produced by the kidneys and acts as a chemical messenger to the bone marrow to produce red blood cells. People with end stage renal disease do not produce this hormone because their kidneys do not function, therefore they do not produce enough red blood cells and they are chronically anemic. So they get an injection of a synthetic form of the hormone in order to keep their hemoglobin at acceptable levels. Aranesp is a protein, an organic compound made up of a whole bunch of carbon and hydrogen and nitrogen and oxygen and sulfur atoms. It has the chemical formula C815H1317N233O241S5 I found that on Wikipedia. So in it's pure form it doesn't have any sodium in it. I don't think there is one "part" of Aranesp that is the danger. It is the overall effect of the drug that can be dangerous. It can cause blood clots, strokes, and heart attacks because if the blood has too many red blood cells in it can become hypercoagulable. The blood is "thick" with too many cells and has the tendency to clump up. A heart attack is blood clot in a coronary artery. A stroke is blood clot in a cerebral artery (at least, that's one type of stroke). Aranesp is a very, very expensive drug. There is no way they are putting it in pickles and selling it at the grocery store. Although I can certainly see how the website you referenced could lead you to believe that polysorbate 80 was another name for darbepoetin alfa, that is definitely not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch55 Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 Hi Saree... Aranesp is formulated as a sterile, colorless, preservative-free solution containing polysorbate for intravenous or subcutaneous administration. Each 1 mL contains polysorbate 80 (0.05 mg), sodium chloride (8.18 mg), sodium phosphate dibasic anhydrous (0.66 mg), and sodium phosphate monobasic monohydrate (2.12 mg) in Water for Injection, USP (pH 6.2 ± 0.2). http://www.rxlist.com/aranesp-drug.htm If you are basing the very small amount of Polysorbate 80 (referenced above) being in the drug, and that being real expensive, so as to think it's different when included in the pickles, there simply isn't any difference... The producers of Polysorbate 80 charge the same for their product whether it's for "medical uses" or for pickles... That is the active ingredient, and it is used in those pickles... I highly doubt in a much lesser amount than .05 mg / ml... Furthermore, there is no doubt that some RX drugs have a markup of easily 1000%... Polysorbate 80 is Polysorbate 80, it just depends on how much... That 45 cents or so that the producer makes selling to the drug company is the same it makes selling to the pickle company... If the drug company's Polysorbate 80 (Or any other active ingredient for that matter) wasn't so cheap to them, the drugs would be prohibitively priced for everyone... The drugs cost so much because they are publicly traded companies... You can buy Polysorbate 80 on the internet... It's not expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saree_maree Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 You are absolutely right. Polysorbate 80 is not expensive. Polysorbate 80 is also not Aranesp. It is an inactive ingredient (as are all the other ingredients you have listed) in the drug formulation that is used as an emulsifier/stabilizer. Just like pills have have dextrose and lactose and cornstarch (for example) added to the actual drugs to make them into a stable pill form, liquid drug formulations have ingredients added, in this case including polysorbate 80, to make them shelf-stable. The inactive ingredients in Aranesp are not causing the side effects you have referenced. They are inactive. Manufacturers are required to list inactive ingredients because there is always the possibility that an individual might be allergic to one of them. I don't want to eat polysorbate 80 any more than you do, I can assure you. I just think it's important not to scare people into thinking that this extremely common (and Whole30 compliant) food additive is going to give them serious medical problems like blood clots, heart attacks, strokes, and heart failure by erroneously equating it with a powerful hematopoietic agent. The serious and potentially life-threatening side effects of darbepoetin alfa have nothing to do with the fact that its injectable formulation includes a small amount of polysorbate 80 as an emulsifier. They are only related to the pharmacological action of the drug itself: the rapid production of a large amount of red blood cells. If you want to make a case against consuming polysorbate 80, there is no need to introduce this drug into the conversation. Here is a link to a study abstract correlating polysorbate 80 intake to colitis and metabolic syndrome in mice: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7541/full/nature14232.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch55 Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 This extremely common additive is hazardous to everyone... You can sugar coat it all you want, but it can wreak havoc even if it isn't intended to be an "active" ingredient... The same site lists it as the drug and as an inactive additive: http://www.drugs.com/cdi/darbepoetin-alfa-polysorbate-80.html (Listed as the drug) http://www.drugs.com/pro/aranesp.html (Listed as inactive) This site details some of Polysorbate 80's hazards: http://www.naturalnews.com/z033406_vaccines_polysorbate_80.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY2LA2MONTREAL Posted September 6, 2015 Author Share Posted September 6, 2015 Tau has Bubbie's And I think I've seen them in the refrigerated section at Loblaws - near the deli meat. Thanks.... I like to chop one up finely and add it to mayo and some tomato paste --- mix it all up and get russian/thousand island dressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY2LA2MONTREAL Posted September 6, 2015 Author Share Posted September 6, 2015 This extremely common additive is hazardous to everyone... You can sugar coat it all you want, but it can wreak havoc even if it isn't intended to be an "active" ingredient... The same site lists it as the drug and as an inactive additive: http://www.drugs.com/cdi/darbepoetin-alfa-polysorbate-80.html (Listed as the drug) http://www.drugs.com/pro/aranesp.html (Listed as inactive) This site details some of Polysorbate 80's hazards: http://www.naturalnews.com/z033406_vaccines_polysorbate_80.html OY VEY!!!!! I just wanted to know if the ingredients in the pickles were compliant. Now --- I will never look at Polysorbate 80 again. Thank you all for this lengthy but interesting debate on this....I am sorry I started this....who knew what a debate pickles could cause. Be well, be happy and DON'T EAT PICKLES WITH POLYSORBATE 80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators ladyshanny Posted September 6, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 6, 2015 I'm just going to go ahead and close this discussion. Polysorbate 80 is not against Whole30 rules, whether or not you choose to consume it is up to you and the research you do. We love open discussion but I think both the "for" and "against" points have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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