Brewer5: A Fresh Start

[SimpleNotEasy]

Hi SNE ~ and welcome!  

 

I saw your comment elsewhere and it has been on my mind -- so I will mention it here.

 

Chapter 18 of Keto Clarity is called "Emerging Areas of Research on the Use of Ketones" -- and one of those sections is called "Alopecia and Hair Loss":

 

"Some people think that a ketogenic diet is the cause of hair loss -- mostly because some people get too few calories on this diet, which can cause hair loss.  But if you're getting enough calories, it's not an issue with a ketogenic diet.  Even better, wellness expert Maria Emmerich says she has seen hundreds of clients who suffered from alopecia for years suddenly grow a full head of hair on a ketogenic diet.  It's a condition with potentially positive results that is certainly worth further research."

 

I am not here to try to convince anyone to do anything.  We all have to make our own choices.  However, I am here to share what I've learned and help people who want to become educated.  When I see these hair loss comments, I know that ~something~ else is wrong with the big picture.  A well-formulated ketogenic diet (with plenty of food & plenty of FAT) should not be causing hair loss.  There are so many other factors.

 

I have experienced major hair loss in the past -- where we found it in the hair brush, tangled up in the vacuum cleaner, clogging up the shower, in the dryer filter, etc etc --  You get the idea.  

 

I just have to say that this has not been a problem for me for years -- probably since we discovered Paleo -- and if anything, it has been my experience that I see even less hair loss when I am on a ketogenic diet.  MeadowLily has mentioned this to me in the past, and it simply is not the case for me.  I have very long hair (almost down to my waist now) -- and when I comb it out after a shower, sometimes I get NO hairs in the comb.  Like, none.    It surprises me every time.  

 

Now, I am not discounting your experience at all -- I just have to wonder if you were really eating lots of fat to make up for the absence of carbohydrate?  I mean, LOTS.  He explains things so well in the book...  And it is generally when people are not eating enough overall -- and/or not eating enough FAT -- that problems begin to arise.  So these are not necessarily a problem with "keto" -- but more, a problem with how it is being formulated.

 

Hey Brewer - Like you, I'm a researcher and a reader. So it's interesting to consider what could be the cause of my hair loss if not the keto way of eating. I really liked keto and the lack of cravings I experienced (though I did miss sweet potatoes and butternut squash). 

 

Last summer, I read Keto Clarity and listened to Jimmy Moore's Livin' La Vida Low Carb podcast. I still like listening to it even though I am just doing the regular Whole 30 right now and not worrying specifically about carb count. 

 

While I did my keto experiment this past summer, I entered everything I ate into My Fitness Pal so that I could see whether I was getting plenty of fat and keeping the carbs low enough. And both were on track - usually around 50-60g carbs per day and around 150g fat (take or give, of course). My calories were plenty high around 2100-2500, I think. (I'm 6' tall, btw.) So I don't think it was not eating enough fat or not eating enough calories. I ate a lot of veggies and I take several high quality supplements (under the direction of a nutritionist who "gets" both Whole 30 and keto), so I don't think it would have been lack of nutrients, either.

 

But it was definitely SOMETHING. Like you said, there was hair clogging up the drain in the shower, on the pillow in the mornings, on the back of the seat in the car, handfuls when I would run my fingers through my hair, etc. etc. I know you know what I'm talking about since you described it.   Similar hair loss also happened to me in 2012 when I did a keto version of the Whole 30 (my first one) under the guidance of a health coach. I wonder if it could be that when I eat keto, some other health issue that I deal with could perhaps manifest in extreme hair loss? Have you ever heard of something like that? I'll have to look into it. 

 

Thanks for spurring me to look further into what the deal is here. 

[Brewer5]

SNE, I have a few thoughts, but not sure if you actually want to pursue ketosis again -- so I won't post them just yet.

 

I do wonder:  How did you feel overall -- besides the hair loss?  What other symptoms creeped up or is there anything else you felt like got worse?

[Brewer5]

Actually, SNE -- I am reading a new kindle book right now and I do have some really interesting thoughts about your situation. Will post more later.

[littleg]

Brewer - thanks for letting me hijack your log for a few minutes yesterday  Carla and Kirkor - thanks for your comments.  I am so an abstainer.  And virtual hugs are so thoughtful

 

Brewer - have you tried cocoa butter?  They sell it at my local coop - it looks like white chocolate and tastes less bitter to me than baking chocolate.  I think its a pretty good source of saturated fat from the little bit of googling I did about it.  I got it for making homemade lotion but tried putting some in my coffee - it was good

[SimpleNotEasy]

SNE, I have a few thoughts, but not sure if you actually want to pursue ketosis again -- so I won't post them just yet.

 

I do wonder:  How did you feel overall -- besides the hair loss?  What other symptoms creeped up or is there anything else you felt like got worse?

 

If I could eat a ketogenic diet without dairy and without losing my hair, I would definitely consider it. The death/deep hibernation of the sugar demon is worth a lot to me. I'll be curious to know what you've been reading and the name of the book, too. (My guess is that it was the dairy rather than the ketosis that contributed to my depression.)

[Brewer5]

Brewer - have you tried cocoa butter?

 

 

You know, I don't think I have.  I was just checking it out on Amazon, and it doesn't look like anything I've bought before.

 

Do you have a favorite brand?

[Brewer5]

If I could eat a ketogenic diet without dairy and without losing my hair, I would definitely consider it. The death/deep hibernation of the sugar demon is worth a lot to me. I'll be curious to know what you've been reading and the name of the book, too. (My guess is that it was the dairy rather than the ketosis that contributed to my depression.)

 

Okay, well -- my first thought is that you may have been consuming too much protein, and never actually achieving full-on ketosis.

 

I say this because:

 

Fat 150g x 9 calories per gram = 1350

 

Carbs 60g x 4 calories per gram = 240

 

That leaves protein making up for at least 510-910 calories... which is 128-228 grams of protein.  That is not really a moderate amount of protein.

 

Between 50-60 grams of carbohydrate -- which IMO is pretty high, especially in the first month, trying to achieve ketosis -- and then the high amount of protein added to the big picture -- I wonder if you were ever really, truly getting there.

 

Were you able to measure blood ketones with a meter or breath ketones, with a Ketonix?  Because -- as Jimmy states over and over in the book -- without monitoring, it's hard sometimes to really know what is going on.

 

It is just a guess and I may be wrong -- but -- another clue to me may be that you "missed" sweet potatoes and butternut squash.  I can honestly say I don't miss a single carby thing, and that is not willpower or determination -- it's just a fact.  May be hard for people to imagine, but it's very real!  Surreal.

 

Using the 150g of fat and 2100-2500 calories you reported -- that puts you at 54-64% fat.  I really think it should be higher than that... especially in the beginning, when trying to make the shift.

 

So where am I going with all of this?

 

There is a sort of "no man's land" (I like to call it) -- where you are not eating enough carbs to run really well on glucose all the time... and you are not eating enough fat to be fully keto-adapted, either.  It's generally not a very comfortable place to be.  It's like:  You gotta make a choice -- which fork in the road are you taking?

 

Did you ever go through a very obvious, distinct, "carb flu"?  Because mine was a very obvious process that my body went through when I first did it last year.   I toughed it out because I knew it was necessary, and I came out on the other side in a really great place.

 

This is why I asked how you felt, besides the hair loss.  I agree that dairy can contribute to feelings of depression for people who are sensitive... but I also wonder if you were simply too low-carb and not eating enough fat.  You can get stuck in this place, and it's just not good.

 

I think that pretty much sums up my thoughts, for now.  The book I am reading is one I found for free on Kindle Unlimited called Ketogenic Diet: Mistakes You Need to Know.  I haven't finished it yet, but I think it is going to be a quick read and a good summary of things to avoid.  I really like it so far.

[Brewer5]

I also want to just clarify to ~everyone~ that I do not "track" my nutrition in any way anymore.  I am only talking calories and grams with SNE because that is what was provided.

 

I went through that phase back in 2012 when I first started working out -- and at the time, I though it was necessary.

 

I now understand that to be completely untrue.  I have felt the effect it has on me, and I am so over it.  Have been for a long time now.

 

This may work for very short-term goals -- but I believe that for all of us to have long-term success, the key is in learning how to properly fuel your body and listen to its signals.  That may sound trite and simplistic, but once you get there, you will realize -- it is so true.

 

Some days I am more hungry, others less.  I will never go back to trying to fit my body into a computer program of any kind.  I could not even remotely tell you how many calories I am consuming right now, or what percentages of macros I am hitting.

 

 I can tell you I'm happy.  I can tell you my fasting blood sugar looks great.  I can tell you I've got some ketones going on.  And all of that makes me happy.  

[littleg]

My coop doesn't sell a brand - its in the bulk refrigerator section.

 

Also - check out that wing recipe I linked to in my log... I think the 4 men in your life would really like it, if you don't already have a good wing recipe

[SimpleNotEasy]

Thanks so much for helping me think this through!

 

As I look at my data from this past summer, my macros mostly put me at around 70-80% fat, 5-10% carbs, 15-20% protein. So maybe I was not very accurate in summarizing my data in my post yesterday. 

 

Anyway, my point is that I thought I was eating in line with Jimmy Moore's recommendations to achieve ketosis, but maybe i wasn't. But since I didn't measure for ketones, I don't actually know. Duh. It seems so obvious now.

 

[Also, I was super-consistent for the month of May and half of June, then got off track. Then I tightened things back up for all of July and August. Then I hit a very low emotional point in early September and stopped tracking. Continued with Paleo meals during the fall, but allowed some off-track things (ahem, tortilla chips and wine) to creep in way too regularly. The yo-yo approach has never proven to be an effective way of achieving optimal health.]

 

I agree with you that my long term plan has never been to track all this - over the summer, I was trying to use My Fitness Pal to help me learn whether I was achieving ketosis. Perhaps if I had just purchased the Ketonix initially, that would've been a better method to test. That and paying better attention to my physical experiences. I can't really remember whether I experienced the carb flu. I think I was headachy for a couple of days. I do know that I had a lot of energy pretty quickly and that I dropped 2.5 inches from my belly button measurement in just a few weeks. Initially, my emotional state was similar to the Whole 30 - it felt so great to be doing something proactive to achieve a state of excellent mental, emotional and physical health.  

 

This has been pretty informative for me to go back and assess what I did and what I didn't do and to see the contributing factors. Thanks for your input. I will continue to process all of this. 

[SimpleNotEasy]

 

So where am I going with all of this?

 

There is a sort of "no man's land" (I like to call it) -- where you are not eating enough carbs to run really well on glucose all the time... and you are not eating enough fat to be fully keto-adapted, either.  It's generally not a very comfortable place to be.  It's like:  You gotta make a choice -- which fork in the road are you taking?

 

Did you ever go through a very obvious, distinct, "carb flu"?  Because mine was a very obvious process that my body went through when I first did it last year.   I toughed it out because I knew it was necessary, and I came out on the other side in a really great place.

 

This is why I asked how you felt, besides the hair loss.  I agree that dairy can contribute to feelings of depression for people who are sensitive... but I also wonder if you were simply too low-carb and not eating enough fat.  You can get stuck in this place, and it's just not good.

 

I think that pretty much sums up my thoughts, for now.  The book I am reading is one I found for free on Kindle Unlimited called Ketogenic Diet: Mistakes You Need to Know.  I haven't finished it yet, but I think it is going to be a quick read and a good summary of things to avoid.  I really like it so far.

 

Could be. Interesting to consider.

[kirkor]

Also SimpleNotEasy, you could very well have done everything right and perhaps a ketogenic diet is not the right fit for you. I think we could all benefit from having lower blood sugar, but while everyone has the metabolic capability to enter ketosis, I don't think we have enough good human studies to indicate that everyone runs *best* that way.

[kirkor]

The book I am reading is one I found for free on Kindle Unlimited...

Another one: "What Is Fat For? Re-thinking Obesity Science", by Ignatius Brady -- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0190W3O7Y?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o04_&pldnSite=1

(I haven't read it, but since you mentioned Kindle Unlimited, figured you could add this to your list)

[Brewer5]

My coop doesn't sell a brand - its in the bulk refrigerator section.

 

Also - check out that wing recipe I linked to in my log... I think the 4 men in your life would really like it, if you don't already have a good wing recipe

 

Thanks -- I checked out that recipe and it looks pretty cool.  Only problem I have is that my husband can't handle ANY spiciness.  For real.  It completely ruins things for him.  When we order wings from BWW, he gets them plain and they dip them in ranch.  This recipe looks promising, though -- he's never figured out how to make wings at home that have that crispiness like BWW.  I just have to make them not spicy.

[littleg]

The method works well. Use salt and pepper and ghee after boiling. Oh no. Don't use ghee. Use duck fat

[Brewer5]

SNE ~ I realize this may seem like a stretch, but -- have you ever done keto while completely dairy-free (even ghee)?

 

I googled "dairy and hair loss" just to see what comes up, and of course -- lots of stuff.  Check out the first part of this one, where they list dairy as #1:

 

http://www.hairlossrevolution.com/foods-that-cause-hair-loss/

[Brewer5]

(ahem, tortilla chips and wine)

 

 

Oh, I hear you.     Those two are out for me, for good.

 

...No, really... for real.  

[Brewer5]

kirkor ~ thanks for the book recommendation.  I added it to my list.

 

The one I mentioned last night -- with the 15 mistakes -- was a good read.  It's not long.  It's pretty to the point.  I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in learning more.

[JessRN]

Hey guys!  I'm so sorry you're struggling, SimpleNotEasy!  I was in "no man's land" myself, despite my best intentions, and I have Brewer5 to thank for helping me realize it!!!!  I ordered a ketonix, because I firmly believe I won't know *for sure* what my own true carb threshold is unless I'm testing.  20g carb daily is my goal right now (I just started), but I want to eventually ride the nice line of as much food freedom as possible while still producing ketones.  And once I know what my own limits are, I honestly feel like I won't have to count anymore.  I'm only being type-A about it right now, because I have no idea what my individual keto life is going to look like!

 

Guys, my blood sugars have been AWESOME!  I wish I had some fasting numbers from before Whole30, or even from during Whole30 when I was feeling bad!!!  Yesterday, my FBS was 86 when I got up.  It was 98 an hour after my delicious breakfast, and back to 86 an hour after that!!!!!!!  YAY METABOLISM!!!

 

This morning, my FBS is 76, and I definitely feel hungry.  But not "hangry" or shaky.  What a huge change.

 

I ordered my Ketonix yesterday!  I cannot wait for it to come!  I'm a scientist at heart, and I need my data! hahaha

[Brewer5]

I thought it would be funny to go back and dig up some of my old struggles (from a Paleo thread on another forum):

 

October 2012 ~ while reading Robb Wolf's book for the first time:

 

"I was doing okay, enjoying the book, until I got to the part today where he says to "use nuts and seeds as you would a condiment".   I don't use condiments much... but I LOVE my nuts and seeds!"

 

 

[Brewer5]

Oh, Lord...  

 

Still from October 2012:

 

"Made some cookies {ahem} "for the kids" tonight.   Wow... another great recipe from Eat Like a Dinosaur book. I will NOT be making those often! But they were awesome. In place of the "1/2 cup chocolate chips", I used one square of the 85% Lindt bar, all chopped up, some shredded coconut, and macadamia nut pieces. As I said... a special treat, for sure! I have eaten more cookies this week than I have the entire rest of the year. "

[Brewer5]

LMAO -- November 2012:

 

"I miss having a shake -- of SOME kind -- so much that yesterday, I shook up my 100 grams of cold cooked sweet potato in a shaker with unsweetened almond milk, and thought I was going to drink it down and enjoy it. I do not recommend this. LOL"

[Brewer5]

{shudder}

 

February 2013:

 

"Anyway, the forums I was active on has a great nutritionist... and she has said that things we have major cravings for, are probably things we are allergic to, or have an intolerance to, and/or things that feed the candida. I was reminded of this last night, when I googled "extreme nut cravings" (LOL). I found a forum where there was an entire discussion about it, and someone mentioned that there is a histamine response when we consume something we have a reaction to, and they talked about endorphins, and how basically it is a comforting feeling even though it is causing damage to our bodies.   This all makes sense to me... and if I really think about it... it's cashews in particular. Maybe others, as well -- but cashews is what I wanted so badly last night. I can eat them until I literally make myself sick... that is hard to admit, but it's true. Like I said, I thought I'd be okay with the raw cashews the other night (thinking it was the oil and salt making the others taste so damn good) -- and I ate so many that I was up in the night with an upset stomach, and I won't go into the details, but let's just say it wasn't good! lol"

[JessRN]

LMAO -- November 2012:

 

"I miss having a shake -- of SOME kind -- so much that yesterday, I shook up my 100 grams of cold cooked sweet potato in a shaker with unsweetened almond milk, and thought I was going to drink it down and enjoy it. I do not recommend this. LOL"

I laughed so hard, my sparkling water shot out my nose LOLOLOLOL

[Brewer5]

July 2013 (after quitting smoking):

 

"My nut binge last night was reflected on the scale this morning with a 1.5 pound GAIN. Combine that with how awful I felt last night, and how bloated I was -- and I think I may be able to get this under control again.  "