Sugar Dragon Slayers

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

Thanks Lauren.  How long has it taken you to get used to eating so much fat, or are you used to it yet?  I want to order some MCT oil now too.  What do you plan to do with it?

 

Brewer and Laura, by adding MCT oil and ghee to your coffees, it this considered 'bulletproof coffee?'  If you are adding oils and fats to your coffees, is this considered your M1?  I could definitely get into having a cup of Crio Bru with oil and ghee as M1 and seeing how long that tides me over.  Sure beats making a Whole 30 compliant breakfast every morning.  I like the idea of drinking this while walking on the treadmill--great idea, Brewer!  I am still on the fence regarding what to do abut Crio Bru--no surprise there.

 

Lauren, good luck on the rest of your cheese reintro day!  I hope it goes better for you than it went for me!  I had some cheese on my salad, some creamy salad dressing, and one slice of pizza on Saturday night.  I got one zit on Sunday and woke up with another zit this morning.  I KNOW it's from the dairy.  I know that dairy equals face breakouts and that gluten/grains equals cravings and blood sugar fluctuations.  Two entire food groups to avoid!

 

P.S.--Lauren, I loved your video about the fire beef!  I've never seen meat cooked with a blow torch and cut up using scissors!  Ha! 

Get used to?  Heck, I love it!  But mentally, I'm still scared.  I don't know that I'm actually IN ketosis so I worry that I still have too much insulin in my bloodstream and my cells are just sucking up the fat and I'm getting fatter and fatter, vs. burning the fat for energy and starting to dig into stored body fat.  All the more reason to drive carbs down.  I'm trying to get below 30g total and stay there for a week or two and see what happens.

 

MCT I'll use as a cooking oil sometimes or add to coffee.  I wouldn't use bulletproof coffee to replace M1, but as an addition to, or before M1.

 

Yup, I'm curious to see if I have reactions to dairy: digestive upset and/or acne and/or congestion.

 

Having your meat cut up with scissors by the restaurant staff is very common in Korean BBQ restaurants.  The blowtorch + alcohol is a bonus at select restaurants.

[Alisonlcarver]

On 11/01/2016 at 6:33 PM, Brewer5 said:

I can't believe Taubes didn't give you food lists.  

 

He does.  It doesn't look very comprehensive to me, or if it is I am going to be VERY restricted in what I can eat during this trial!  Here is what he recommends eating:

 

Beef, pork, ham, bacon, lamb, veal, or other meats.  He talks about processed meats, but I am not doing those...

 

Chicken, turkey, duck, or other fowl.

 

Any fish, including tuna, salmon, catfish, bass, trout, shrimp, scallops, crab, and lobster.

 

Whole eggs.

 

Salad greens (2 cups per day): arugula, bok choy, cabbage, chard, chives, endive, all varieties of greens, kale, all varieties of lettuce, parsley, spinach, radicchio, radishes, scallions, and watercress.

 

Vegetables (1 cup, measured uncooked, per day): artichokes, asparagus, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, celery, cucumber, eggplant, green beans, jicama, leeks, mushrooms, okra, onions, peppers, pumpkin (surprising to me), shallots, snow peas, sprouts, sugar snap peas, summer squash, tomatoes (also surprising), rhubarb, wax beans, and zucchini.

 

Bouillon: 2 cups per day, as needed for sodium replacement.

 

Cheese, cream, soy sauces: not doing any of these since they are not Whole 30.

 

Mayo: up to 4 tablespoons (HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA, yeaaaaaa 4 T. per day.)

 

Olives: up to 6 per day.

 

Avocado: up to 1/2 per day.

 

Lemon/lime juice: up to 4 tsp. per day.

 

Sugar-free pickles: up to 2 svgs per day (this is super specific...)

 

Snacks of pork rinds, pepperoni, ham, beef, turkey, devilled eggs.  I won't be eating the pepperoni or processed meats, but will do the real meats and devilled eggs.  Not sure how I feel about eating pork rinds.  I've never tried them before and I just don't know...

 

All fats and oils are allowed.  Avoid hydrogenated oils.  I won't be eating any fats containing dairy.

 

He talks about sweeteners (which I won't be using) and alcohol (which I won't be using.) 

 

I think he talks about occasionally eating berries as fruits, but rarely and in moderation.  Really no other fruits are discussed.

 

I also think he mentions nuts, but once again in moderation and not very often.  I'll probably do the high MUFA nuts, like macadamias and walnuts.

 

Is this basically it?  I'll go ahead and tell you, 2 cups of salad greens and 1 cup pre-cooked of vegetables is nothing.  Is that really all the veggies I can eat?  That is not sustainable to me, and I will be eating more veggies than that.  I'm happy to eat moderate protein and high fat but if it's going to last it's got to be sustainable and limiting veggies is not.  I tried Atkins for 1 1/2 weeks, and I was literally weighing every vegetable before I ate it.  1 1/2 weeks was too long to do that.  Not sustainable.

 

Taubes doesn't mention coconut products, but I know coconut oils, butters, flakes, and milks are OK.  I plan to eat these as fats.  I also plan to eat more than 6 olives.  What in the world?  Who eats just 6 olives?

UPDATE: In light of the new, April 1, 2017 ruling on commercial chips of any kind, pork rinds are not compliant with the Whole30 program.

[littleg]

/\ That.  All my messages back and forth with Brewer are about weighing veggies and how I can't live like that.  And she responds that you don't need to weigh veggies... I don't know.  This is why I've tried keto 3 times now, never getting more than 48 hours.  

 

In keto news, I got called off of work today so I have 4 days in a row off.  Since 12 hour shifts are one of my main obstacles to eating "well" I figured I'd give keto one more try for these 4 days.  I just got my period so no pregnancy to worry about and... clearly high carb wasn't helping things, so maybe low carb will :/

 

Today I ate: 

 

Coffees with coconut milk, 1 with 1 tbsp MCT oil.  I didn't really mean for this to be a M1 but it kind of was.  I've been doing this lately before work (no oil, just got it a few days ago and was NOT trying it the first time at work   ) - drinking about 200ish calories of fat via coconut milk/cream and then eating by 10.  I figure its like a fat fast... sort of.  

 

11:30 is - Lunch was left over short rib (pretty fatty), mayo, HB egg - I literally ate it off a saucer it took up so little space - quite a change from my usual serving bowls as single portions!   I made a decaf with coconut milk but, had a sip and then got a case of the, meh's.  Didn't drink it.

 

3ish - had a mason jar of homemade chicken broth with 1 WHOLE TSP of salt added to it because my heart felt like it was about to beat out of my chest (this has happened before).  I guess it worked because an hour later I felt better.  

 

Around 5 I had a HB egg with mayo b/c I was hungry.

 

Peed on a ketone stick and it was nearly purple.

 

Dinner at 6:30 was ~1/2 a pork chop, I ate the fat my husband cut off of his.  Had 1/2 zucchini cooked in lard and some oven roasted eggplant.  ~2/3 c coconut milk for dessert.  

 

Lessons to pass on:

- If you feel like shit, try the sodium thing.  

- Whether the ketone sticks are worthless or not (summary from a quick pubmed search is below) they are nice to have.  Jess recently posted something about her negative opinion of "pushing the envelope" with carb consumption.  I guess I think that if my "pushing the envelope" means trying to eat 5-6 servings of veggies a day than I'm ok with that.  I'd love to get a couple of blood readings after a "high carb" veggie meal (a few cups of brussel sprouts cooked in lard, more than a cup of creamed spinach, my usual spinach, onions and peppers side dish).  Even tonight I feel like a keto failure because I had zucchini AND eggplant... I don't want to live like that.

- I am noticing my appetite is way down BUT my food is so calorically dense I have no idea if maybe I'm still eating pretty high calorie.  

 

 

Correlation between urine ketones (acetoacetate) and capillary blood ketones (3-beta-hydroxybutyrate) in hyperglycaemic patients.

Taboulet P1, Deconinck N, Thurel A, Haas L, Manamani J, Porcher R, Schmit C, Fontaine JP, Gautier JF.

 

In hyperglycaemic patients in the Emergency Department, a good correlation was observed between urine ketones and capillary blood ketones for low values, but a poor correlation was observed for high values. Either test can therefore be used to exclude ketosis, but the capillary blood ketones test is more accurate to confirm ketoacidosis.

 

I'm not at work so I can't get the article but I'm *assuming* that low ketone levels for ketoacidosis are still probably higher than ketones during nutritional ketosis.

[Alisonlcarver]

It takes longer than 48 hours to become full keto fat-adapted though, doesn't it? What is the reason for stopping after 48 hours? Too many veggies? If two servings of veggies is the worst things you're eating, I think you're doing pretty good!

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

I'm giving it the old college try, as they say, but I too worry about sustainability.  But maybe I'll feel so awesome that I'll be okay with living on 2 cups of salad greens and 1 cup of other veggies per day.  It just doesn't feel "natural" to work so hard on carb cutting.  I get that nutritional ketosis is NORMAL for population groups with no access to veggies (Inuit).  We as omnivores are blessed/cursed with the ability to do well on MANY different diets (vegan/vegetarian/Paleo/keto/etc.).

 

Today I'm "over" Taubes recommendations because I had 2 cups of raw spinach (which wilts down to about a quarter cup cooked) at breakfast, I'm having 100g of steamed cauliflower rice AND salad greens at lunch, and I'm having salad greens again at supper.  But no avocado and no nuts, so my overall carbs are currently <30g.

 

It's a wait and see.  I might go back to moderate protein, moderate carb (~100g) and moderate fat vs. high-fat (a.k.a. Paleo with no sweeteners and limited nuts/seeds).

 

Ali - FYI YES to macadamias NO to walnuts - the latter are high in the bad PUFAs.

[Alisonlcarver]

Yes, sustainability is the major concern for me too. But I'll try it out for 30 days and see what happens. Doing the Whole 30 was a gradual process, so I bet LCHF is too. It may be painful and difficult though...more so than Whole 30 for sure. If nothing else, it may make me appreciate Whole 30 even more. I'm trying to have faith.

I ate my last sweet potato tonight and enjoyed every single bite of it. I had it with a full packet of coconut butter. Dang, that is a good veggie and fat. Dessert for dinner (with a protein source, of course.)

[SimpleNotEasy]

Here is dinner... It's a taco salad, which to me means a palm sized serving of ground beef seasoned with chili powder, cumin, paprika & crushed red pepper on a bed of baby kale with Tessamae's Lemon Garlic dressing topped with guacamole. I also had a few green olives & carrots (dipped in a little more guacamole) on the side. No idea how many carbs I ate today. It was fairly low. No idea how many actual servings of veggies, either, due to the curry. It's hard to estimate how many veggies are in curry, know what I mean? Plus I had it on a bed of cauliflower rice.

In my view, this felt like a good and sustainable day. Am I headed toward ketosis after a day such as today? Not sure. I think so, but am not sure.

[Brewer5]

Okay, I am all caught up on reading, just now getting time to come back and re-read, and actually post.  I'm not messing with quoting right now -- I'll just throw out my thoughts since there is so much discussion.

 

First of all, my bottle of MCT oil says not to use it for cooking -- and I don't think I would ever use it for anything hotter than coffee.

 

Next -- I do not do the whole "bulletproof coffee" thing at all... although I have tried it in the past.  It never made me feel very great long-term.  This could be because I've realized how sensitive I really am to ALL dairy, including grass-fed butter AND ghee.  This could be because I found the MCT/caffeine combo SO stimulating -- too stimulating.  It could be because yes, it allowed me to go too long without eating and I should have just been having real food.  It could be all of the above.

 

I also went through a stage where I did a lot of heavy cream in coffee -- this was all the rage in the CN/CBL group -- get up and just have coffee and heavy cream -- it is "like" fasting in the AM.  Well, see the above paragraph -- because this never lasted too long, either, before I felt like crap and cut it out again.

 

I can't do coconut milk because it makes me blow up like a BALLOON.  (We've discussed FODMAPs -- yes, I am sensitive.)

 

So I drink my coffee black, with Great Lakes collagen powder added to it.  This is easy protein, and some of the good benefits you would get from bone broth -- although I realize it is not the same.  I do feel a difference when I remove it, and I feel healthier overall when I include it.  So it's in.

 

Edited to say:  In case anyone is curious, it is the GREEN can: "collagen hydrolysate".  The other kind will make your coffee like Jell-o!  

[Brewer5]

My next thoughts are:  

 

Funny that we have any "unhealthy" idea of fat, at all.  And YES ~ you have to eat a lot of it.

 

Alison ~ am I reading you correctly, that you think there is NO WAY you would consume 4T of mayo in a day?  Because I absolutely can and do.  Easily.  Are you sure you're ready for this?  

[Alisonlcarver]

No, I meant that 4 T. is not very much. Taubes recommend consuming UP TO 4 T. a day.

[Brewer5]

And on the subject of weighing and measuring your vegetables:  No.  Just... NO.  You should be eating enough FAT that you do not WANT to eat massive quantities of vegetables, anyway.  Template amounts - yes.  Pounds?  No!  If you feel this way, you are not eating enough fat.  Period.

 

I was not encouraging anyone to start a pork rind habit.  Zero nutrition there -- and actually QUITE a bit of protein.  Probably high in omega-6, which we get plenty of.

 

No on the walnuts.  Just stick to macadamia nuts.

 

I am glad to hear I misunderstood you on the mayo.  

 

And I do not count olives.  What a joke. 

UPDATE: In light of the new, April 1, 2017 ruling on commercial chips of any kind, pork rinds are not compliant with the Whole30 program.

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

My next thoughts are:  

 

Funny that we have any "unhealthy" idea of fat, at all.  And YES ~ you have to eat a lot of it.

 

Alison ~ am I reading you correctly, that you think there is NO WAY you would consume 4T of mayo in a day?  Because I absolutely can and do.  Easily.  Are you sure you're ready for this?  

Yes, I put it in quotations because WE know that it's not unhealthy, but boy, the government and the food marketers and even large parts of the medical community would have us think it is.  Not so much funny as it is sad.  SAD-sad.

 

I pondered this morning that I'm not missing my daily clementine orange - there were many days it was my only serving of fruit and now even it is gone.  It's been about a week, I guess.  Bring on the bacon!

[Brewer5]

It takes longer than 48 hours to become full keto fat-adapted though, doesn't it? What is the reason for stopping after 48 hours? Too many veggies? If two servings of veggies is the worst things you're eating, I think you're doing pretty good!

 

 

Laura doesn't feel good at all when she attempts this.  She gets anxiety and heart palpitations.  I thought about sending her a message tonight, but instead, I thought I'd share this answer with the group.

 

Laura, I don't know if you are eating enough.  It's easy to do when satiety is high ~ but that does not mean it is healthy, or what is best for you.  Laura, you should not feel like any sort of failure for eating vegetables.  

 

I am not sure how many times I can say that the weighing, measuring, and stressing over VEGETABLES is not necessary.  

 

The worries about whether this is sustainable...  No.  Nothing is sustainable if you are trying to follow someone else's rules, instead of doing what you feel is best for your own body.

 

Counting your olives and measuring your greens is NOT sustainable!

 

Tracking every morsel you put in your mouth is NOT sustainable.

 

Letting anything make you "feel like a failure" is not sustainable.

 

Protein + veggie + fat is sustainable.  That's it.  You can still just think:  TEMPLATE.

[Alisonlcarver]

Laura doesn't feel good at all when she attempts this.  She gets anxiety and heart palpitations.

I didn't know this! I'm sorry!

[Alisonlcarver]

The worries about whether this is sustainable...  No.  Nothing is sustainable if you are trying to follow someone else's rules, instead of doing what you feel is best for your own body.

 

Counting your olives and measuring your greens is NOT sustainable!

 

Tracking every morsel you put in your mouth is NOT sustainable.

 

Letting anything make you "feel like a failure" is not sustainable.

 

Protein + veggie + fat is sustainable.  That's it.  You can still just think:  TEMPLATE.

I like this.

I am going to try my keto Whole 30 using the template but focusing more on fats than I did previously, with moderate protein and low-carb veggies. I will occasionally eat macadamia nuts as my only nuts and ocassionally eat berries as my only fruit. No measuring, no counting, no tracking macros, no anxiety or stress over whether I am technically achieving ketosis. That seems sustainable to me.

[littleg]

I think I'm eating enough... after last night's salt lick I did feel better  Could have been an electrolyte problem.  I already salt my food really heavily so I didn't think that sodium could be an issue - I have to fill up my salt grinder once a week!  And just for the record, they aren't palpitations - its just a super strong heart beat.  The rate is still normal.  I had a hard time finding my radial pulse yesterday to count my HR when I was lying in bed just feeling my heart pump away in there and usually I have a pretty good bounding pulse... so I thought maybe my blood volume was down a little and I tried the salt to help pull some fluid into my vessels.  No idea if my science is totally off - but I did feel better.   Slept good last night too - no anxiety feelings going on.  

 

I've got 4 days here... I'm going to stick with it - heart/anxiety issues made me quit - if I don't have them I'll keep going

 

See here is the thing with veggies -  I LOVE them.  And when you get to put fat on them they are even better (and they make good carriers for fat).  20g of CHO a day doesn't seem sustainable to me.  50g a day... that does - and if I could get the benefits of NK with 50g a day - why the heck wouldn't I do that?  

[Brewer5]

^ You would do that. You would want to eat as many veggies as you can.

I think Jess's point about going down to 20 is that ~ after a few days of this ~ there is literally no choice and no doubt: Your body will HAVE to get efficient at making ketones. Just like if you were lost in the woods, and there were no fruit or potatoes available to you. You'd *have* to make the switch. I think it is generally understood that once you get past that initial carb flu and make the transition, you experiment with more carbs here and there if you wish, and see how you feel. If something makes me foggy, man, I know it right away. You will be able to figure out what works for YOU.

If you are truly keto-adapted, though, you should be able to go all day with protein and fat only, if you needed or desired to. With no crash of energy, no headaches, nothing. I think Jess's post was more geared toward people wanting to make that initial switch, and get the HECK outta no-man's land.

Really glad to hear you are feeling better!!!

[whole30determined]

I also wanted to chime in here, as I tried the Keto/LCHF eating plan as well and I didn't last long.   For Keto, the stress was on eating < 30g of carbs in a day to get into Ketosis.    Have you figured out how much that really is???  It's not alot at all.   I found that I had to eat iceberg lettuce vs. spinach, zucchini vs. any type of red/orange peppers, and no carrots or other dense carbs.   My first thought was....I feel like I'm missing out on my some good nutrient dense veggies!   And, I also started to become obsessed with tracking every veggie I put in my mouth, and consumed with the "how many carbs are in ___ veggie?".   Everything I ate became a question of if I was going over my daily limit.   

 

This is why I stopped.  As soon as I had to track my food and really be aware of my carb counts, I found my old ways creeping back in of measuring and obsessing.  This is why I love Whole30!   Even though I still tend to measure out my oils and my protein, I love having all kinds of veggies and not having to track how many grams of carbs are in each morsel.   There is freedom here, and that diet-obsessed-consumed feeling goes away and you are free to eat what makes you feel the best, not what someone else plans out for you.

 

I know Keto is great for some, and maybe once you figure out the right portion and combo of carbs to hit < 30g, then it gets easier.   But just be aware that with it, does come some tracking of carbs and even fats (I got all back into the macro-counting and made myself nuts....hours of trying to get the %'s right).   Again, Keto might be great for you, I just wanted to share some of my experiences with it.  No judgement at all from me, this is just food for thought (no pun intended).  

[Brewer5]

^ I am glad you shared your experience, and how and why it was not sustainable for you long-term.

In case you missed it, I am ANTI-tracking, and that is why a keto/Whole 30 approach works best for me.

I have done two 30-day rounds of keto in the past, and I am on my longest stretch now (~9 weeks so far) ... And I did not track at all, for any of these. It really is not necessary.

I don't encourage anyone here on the forums to do it, either. They just do.

[whole30determined]

In case you missed it, I am ANTI-tracking, and that is why a keto/Whole 30 approach works best for me.

 

Thanks Brewer!   So I've gone through most of the pages of the SDS forum and can't find much on the Keto/W30.  You have peaked my interest!!  What exactly is a Keto/W30?  And if you already posted it somewhere, you can throw me the link so you don't have to re-type it all.  I pretty much already stay away from all fruit and nuts, and only do 1/2 sweet potato on the days that I lift at the gym.   But, I'd be curious to hear what that looks like for you.   I know fat is my friend, and maybe looking at Keto/W30 will help solidify that I need the fat (whereas now I'm still nervous about adding more fat...but I'm getting better!).   

 

This is the best forum, by the way!   I love reading what everyone is sharing.  Whoever started this....THANKS!   

[Brewer5]

Keto/Whole 30 just means eating protein + veggie + fat ... With more emphasis on fat, and (for me) no starchy carbs or fruit. It's not an official "Whole 30 program" -- it's a mix of the two.

You can *technically* do Whole 30 and eat nothing but fruits & nut butters. YOU CAN. It's "compliant".

For a handful of us here, we've decided that maybe OUR Whole 30 looks more like keto. And that is also "compliant".

What's great about Whole 30 is the emphasis put on listening to your *own* body. I have already been the route of nuts & butters, potatoes and FODMAP issues. My last Whole 30 was a Keto Whole 30 -- and it was by far my best experience overall.

I just ~feel better~ without the carbs. I just DO. No tracking, no angst... Just listening to my body & doing what works for me.

[Brewer5]

I do have a post-Whole-30 log, which is pretty active. Jammed with info & conversation. Do you know how to find it? All are welcome there, too. I am on my phone right now, so can't link.

[Alisonlcarver]

I plan to eat lots of fatty cuts of meat, not draining the fat when I cook.  For fatty cuts of meat, I know grass-fed and organic are preferred, but for money's sake is conventional OK?  1 lb. of grass-fed beef is $9.99 whereas 1 lb. of conventional ground in store beef from Fresh Market is $2.99.

[Brewer5]

^ I will be interested to hear others' experiences / opinions on this one.

For myself, feeding a family of five ~ three of which are rapidly growing boys ~ (PLUS raw-feeding a rapidly growing dog!) we are not in a place to afford organic and grass-fed, very often. I won't say we "can't" -- because we used to make it more of a priority -- but at this point, we don't choose to. I've got kids who want to sign up for about $500-600 of classes right now... When it comes down to these decisions at the store, we do go for the cheaper meats most of the time. I especially like to scope out the things that are reduced because they are close to their date.

That said, I do not consume gallons and gallons of conventionally raised fat. Personal choice. We drain (not rinse) meat made for chili or tacos, whatever -- and we add other fats to it a lot. If I cook a whole chicken or pork tenderloin in the instant pot, sure I eat some of the broth along with the meat & veggies -- we all do -- but the rest of it gets dumped at the end of the night, not saved & slurped.

[littleg]

My very basic (mostly internet based) understanding is that toxins (pesticides, meds, etc) are often stored in fat - so when buying conventional go for lean but add your own fat.  A $7/lb difference is certainly reason to buy conventional.  

 

I get our beef from two places - my in-laws (lucky me!) or a local farmer... I found on Craigslist.  He has about 30 head of cattle at any time and slaughters a few each month.  He doesn't go to farmer's markets (too $ to get a booth) so I never would have discovered him without actively looking.  I would certainly look around for grassfed meat - fatty cuts should be cheaper - cross shanks, short ribs, briskets are usually less money and also fatty.  There are also on-line places that waive shipping for orders > 200, 300$ etc so if you've got a chest freezer that might be a good option.  

 

There is also a brand of Australian beef that is sold locally - all Australian beef is grassfed (some might be grain finished) and it is much cheaper.  Nature's Reserve is the brand, maybe you can find a local retailer?

 

I have no idea what your financial situation is but my husband and I spend a ton on food - but we spend very little on restaurants, bars, movies, cable, clothes, jewelry, fancy cars, etc that most 30-somethings spend money on.  For example, cable went when we joined crossfit - things like that.  So, if you can find it for a price that makes it almost do-able (like 5-6$ a lb) then maybe make some small adjustments elsewhere if you can.