Sugar Dragon Slayers

[SimpleNotEasy]

I should say, I recommend it as food for thought.

[Brewer5]

Sara, I like Chris Kresser. Are you saying it is more pro-carb or low-carb?

I am listening to Jimmy's podcast with Ron Rosedale right now, and in fact just came here to post about it.

[SimpleNotEasy]

I listened to the Rob RoswdLe one last week.

The Chris Kresser podcast makes a point that there is room for some individualization with regard to carbs and that typically, whole food carbs are not the problem that processed carbs are. Again, though, it isn't one size fits all. It just made me pause a moment to consider that broad brush prescriptions are simply that.

[Brewer5]

^ I am listening to Ron Rosedale because of you talking about it.

And yes, exactly... You read about my reaction to potatoes. That doesn't mean that everyone feels that way. But should I continue to eat them just because anyone else says I "should"? Umm, no. We all have to listen to what our bodies are telling us.

[SimpleNotEasy]

Oops - just looked back & saw my typo! Lol. I meant Ron Rosedale!

[SimpleNotEasy]

 

Interesting thoughts (in chart format) from Chris Kresser about carb recommendations.

 

I got a couple of ebooks from him by signing up on his website. I find him to be VERY well-reasoned. In the one called "The Low Down on Low Carb," he writes about how for some people, ketogenic diets work beautifully. Keto can be used to treat certain medical conditions with excellent results. But for others, it makes more sense (medically speaking) to take a moderate carb approach. In his view, it depends on what medical conditions you might or might not have as to what the ideal carb intake might be for you as an individual. 

 

Ali and Laura, I think you'd both benefit from reading this ebook (it is really a series of articles by him and two of his staff dietitians) since you both are wanting to get pregnant. One of dietitians writes about some carb recommendations regarding fertility and fetal development.

 

Now when I listen to or read Jimmy Moore or Dr David Perlmutter, I also find them to be well-reasoned. So I'm not saying that I know that they are wrong. Not at all. However, I am appreciating that Chris Kresser is pointing out that one size does not fit all. It does make sense that it would depend upon what a person is dealing with - like pre-diabetes or diabetes, hypothyroidism, etc. as to how they would want to proceed with their carb intake.

 

We can experiment and figure out what works for us as individuals. If things aren't working well or if our medical situation is more complicated, we might want to work with a knowledgeable professional to tweak things. I found an MD who understands functional medicine and leans that way. She has a nutritionist who works with her who "gets it" in terms of things like the Whole 30, ketogenic diets, and the like. They have helped me with some supplements that address some of the medical conditions I deal with. But I still needed Whole 30 to get me back on track when I was sinking this fall.

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

...BUT, I don't plan to live the perfect template life forever.  I have been completely Whole 30 compliant since the day after Thanksgiving--what is that? 38 days now?  I don't plan to stay completely compliant forever, but right now I am just feeling so darn good and I am seeing improvements in my body composition, so I really don't want to reintroduce anything at this point.  I think my issue is being OK with not being perfect in what I eat, when I eat, etc.  If I expect perfection in myself, striving to eat the perfect template meal 3 times a day, have the perfect template pre- and post-WO meals, etc., then I am setting myself up for failure.  While that would be a great goal, nobody is perfect and to ask that of myself is not fair.  I need to learn to be OK with rarely easing up on the Whole 30 rules, and learn to do a Whole Ali.  I am not going to give myself permission or enable myself to eat treats or desserts or whatever I want, even if they fit the Whole 30 guidelines or template.  However, I have decided that a dessert or treat just for the sake of eating something yummy and delicious and pleasing to me once in a while is OK, and that I am not going to feel bad or guilty about it.  I do suppose that eating something when not actually hungry could be considered disordered eating because I am physically shoving more food into my stomach then I need at that time.  But, like Lauren suggested, second-guessing myself and feeling guilty about not eating perfectly and having a snack is also disordered, in a psychological way.  Perhaps what I should do next time, if I can plan it, is to have a little bit less at dinner so that I can include my dessert as part of my meal, and not be over-full.  I think the Whole 30 is very good at making us ask questions to ourselves of why and I eating this, should I be eating this now, am I really hungry, etc. and it is very good at giving us introspection.  I think this is why I am thinking so much about this, and I think it's a good think to contemplate food choices, especially before consuming them.  I've still got to learn how to not be perfect and not feel bad about it.  I am still not sure what I should do, when this issue comes up in the future...

Agreed that the Whole30 is BY DEFINITION not meant to be a Whole365.  They actually warn AGAINST that in the official literature.  Trying to adhere slavishly and perfectly to the template at all times with all foods and with feelings of guilt, shame or disappointment when you don't or can't would be, in my (non-medical) opinion, the form of disordered eating known as "orthorexia nervosa" - a compulsion with following rules rigidly regarding eating patterns.  There will be times that we will eat JUST BECAUSE it's delicious, less than 4 hours since our last "template" meal (or in addition to).  Just like my extra serving of butter chicken!  What we have to be very, very careful about is rationalizing a food choice as "healthy" or "less bad."  And we have to be prepared to pay the price of increased cravings and/or hormonal or gut disruption because of the food.  And guess what, sometimes it will STILL be worth it.  But I think those "worth it" times will decrease dramatically as our experience as Dragon Slayers goes on, especially if the food in choice contains sugar (even just natural fruit sugar).

 

Next time, run the "worth it" scenario and maybe you'll decide that a packet of coconut butter (dopamine rush from the fat but no sugar) will do just fine.  Or maybe nothing at all, or herbal tea (side note: I had a nice cup of herbal tea with almond milk a few days ago and really enjoyed it.  I didn't have it during Whole30 because I didn't - and still don't - know all of the additives in the almond milk, other than that it has no sweeteners.  On closer inspection, I found out that the tea has artificial flavours and soy lecithin.  Hoo boy!).  Or maybe you'll decide that the banana and the nut butter ARE worth it (and enjoy the HECK out of it), but remembering that your body is going to react to them very similarly to a candy bar.  And if it suddenly becomes a "treat" that you set up once a week, or once a day and you start looking forward to it, or fantasizing about it, then we'll be here to pull you back from the edge.

 

I know already that my next Whole30 needs to be nut and seed-free. 

 

Re: Eggnog.  You haven't had any sweetener at all, so maybe your taste buds would be adapted to enjoy eggs, coconut milk and spices.  I think adhering to no vanilla extract because of the negligible alcohol content is a bit slavish (even the Whole30 admits that it's a bit of a "stretch" as a rule, but just designed to make it as black and white and easy as possible), but there is alcohol-free vanilla extract, or vanilla powder, or vanilla bean paste as options (as mentioned).  Mind you, if it's important to you from a religious standpoint to completely abstain from alcohol even in its most innocuous forms, then carry on!  It's not quite like pouring a half cup of rum or bourbon into a fruit cake, though, IMO.

 

Brewer - don't go anywhere! Like Ali said, I appreciate your viewpoint and want to hear it. You make me think. 

 

One thing that made me think was your comment above that your choices don't have to do with guilt. I think this fall, when I was eating some sugar and drinking too much wine, I experienced A LOT of guilt. In the psychological world, I think it's called cognitive dissonance - when we hold a particular belief but then act in contrast to that belief. This is one likely reason that I began feeling better immediately upon deciding to do a Whole 30 - because I believe in this style of eating and I started to act in accordance with that belief. Such a huge relief.

 

So Ali - this is a reason to work through what you believe about having an indulgence at times. When we act in accordance with our beliefs, we don't feel guilty. Part of that process is making observations about how we feel physically when we eat certain foods and then deciding what is worth it or not. Also, if we understand what drives us to want those indulgences (i.e. is it the sugar dragon or do we want a reward or what have you), that's another piece of the process.

 

Just some thoughts on the whole thing...

 

Lauren - interesting take away about the dopamine hit from just seeing the trigger food. I noticed that when it was mentioned in the film, but had not given it a lot of thought. Will have to ponder it.

I think Sara hit the nail on the head with this, Ali.  You're having so much angst because you personally don't really believe that a banana and nut butter is okay.  We're not here to tell you whether it IS or ISN'T, for YOU.  That's what makes the Whole30 so hard, and so valuable.  Only YOU can decide the right answer for YOU.  Which is a lot harder than just mindlessly following the rules - you've moved the decision-making back into the pre-frontal cortex (or out of, I can't remember!).  It's the OPPOSITE of the decision-making that gets done for you by default DURING the Whole30.  It's similar to determining the optimal carb intake for YOU.  There are lots of studies to suggest one thing or another, but you won't know what's truly optimal for YOU until YOU experiment with it.

 

My second Whole 30 -- I made a personal rule of no nuts & seeds, because I had looked forward to carrots and homemade sunflower butter almost every evening of my first. I was eating them as a dessert, after what should have been a satisfying meal. And subconsciously I KNEW IT ... Now, I am a super honest person, so I wasn't here "lying" to anyone about it -- it's just that I was not even being honest *with myself* about it. It was part of my template meal. Oh, sure.

So on my second Whole 30, white potatoes had just been approved. And boy, did I have fun with that. I had read Kiefer's stuff by this point -- Carb Nite and Carb Backloading -- and I was also lifting heavy. His reasoning that if you are going to have carbs, have them at night and/or after lifting, made sense to me and I incorporated it. So I was LCHF all day, and looked forward to my potato every night with my evening meal. ...No, wait... I mean, I REALLY looked forward to that potato. ...Oh, crap... I started to get hangry and even a little shaky while preparing dinner, because my body was SO looking forward to that potato. Anticipating the rush of sugar. And guess what else? Often I would finish my meal, and reason with myself that my potato really *wasn't* very big... And I would go to the kitchen and make ANOTHER potato.

^ All of this, combined with the fact that I woke up many mornings with that heavy/hungover feeling... Combined with the fact that I realized I just felt so. much. better. during the ultra low carb part of my days/weeks -- all of that is what led me to keto. That is why my 3rd (and final) Whole 30 was a Keto Whole 30.

...Anyway, just thought I'd share a little more about the mind games we play with ourselves... The justifications, etc. And my body's anticipation of that potato also fit into the discussion about the mind/body connection in relation to sugar. Because those white potatoes are glucose, plain and simple. I might as well have been anticipating a DQ Blizzard every night, because the feelings were the same. Ask me how I know.

Thanks for sharing, Brewer.  I'm relieved to hear that you may have ingested a DQ Blizzard at least once in your life.   lol.

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

I'm so glad you are all here for these kinds of discussions.  My moods have been up and down dramatically over the past week.  Last Thursday (NYE, the day of the buttered squid, as it shall henceforth be known), I was in a serious funk all day up until I got home and got ready to go out with my husband.  I worked out that day and felt disgusted and ashamed the whole time, at the body fat I have put on and the loss of strength from not working out as regularly in November & December.  I was seriously contemplating going back to IIFYM just for the month of January in a desperate attempt to quickly drop some weight/body fat.  And yes, put myself back into starvation mode, and mess up my hormones and get non-sustainable results that would have me running back to the Whole30 (you can see I talked myself out of that).

 

Yet, the very next day I worked out and felt much more positive.  Same body.  Same relatively weaker performance in the gym.  Then yesterday (Monday), I was back to feeling gross and disappointed during my workout.  And hungry!  I ate my template lunch (de-constructed sushi with avocado & mayo for fat, plus a large salad of mixed greens with EVOO) and still felt hungry so I had mixed salted nuts AND a coconut butter packet and finally managed to stop at half a Larabar (the first time I have been able to stop without eating the whole thing).

 

I don't know if this is all PMS-related (I don't track ovulation, but maybe I'm actually getting a "true" period this month vs. just a forced period from the synthetic hormones in the BCP).

 

I might have to actually track my carb intake to try out true low-carb/ketosis levels or accept that I do better (especially mood-wise) with moderate carbs.  Only one way to find out, for me!

[SimpleNotEasy]

Brewer pointed out to me that Kresser is selling a program. That reminds me of a point That Sugar Film makes about the sugar industry not wanting the public to know that sugar is bad with a capital B - he has something to gain by keeping people conflicted about how many carbs they should eat. Hm. That's an interesting thought. I'm not maligning his character - I don't know the guy. Maybe he is keeping people conflicted for his own benefit, maybe he isn't. But it's something to consider. Maybe I should've waited to write about what I was thinking. 

 

I'm so glad you are all here for these kinds of discussions.  My moods have been up and down dramatically over the past week.  Last Thursday (NYE, the day of the buttered squid, as it shall henceforth be known), I was in a serious funk all day up until I got home and got ready to go out with my husband.  I worked out that day and felt disgusted and ashamed the whole time, at the body fat I have put on and the loss of strength from not working out as regularly in November & December.  I was seriously contemplating going back to IIFYM just for the month of January in a desperate attempt to quickly drop some weight/body fat.  And yes, put myself back into starvation mode, and mess up my hormones and get non-sustainable results that would have me running back to the Whole30 (you can see I talked myself out of that).

 

Yet, the very next day I worked out and felt much more positive.  Same body.  Same relatively weaker performance in the gym.  Then yesterday (Monday), I was back to feeling gross and disappointed during my workout.  And hungry!  I ate my template lunch (de-constructed sushi with avocado & mayo for fat, plus a large salad of mixed greens with EVOO) and still felt hungry so I had mixed salted nuts AND a coconut butter packet and finally managed to stop at half a Larabar (the first time I have been able to stop without eating the whole thing).

 

I don't know if this is all PMS-related (I don't track ovulation, but maybe I'm actually getting a "true" period this month vs. just a forced period from the synthetic hormones in the BCP).

 

I might have to actually track my carb intake to try out true low-carb/ketosis levels or accept that I do better (especially mood-wise) with moderate carbs.  Only one way to find out, for me!

 

Lauren - Glad you decided not to go back to IIFYM if that would've meant starvation and hormone disruption!!! 

 

So a couple of things... 

 

-Do you think that your moods are impacted by dairy? (The reason I ask is that I have a sense that mine are.)

 

-Just popped over to your reintro thread - could corn be having this impact on your moods?

 

-If you want to do ketosis, I think it's helpful to track carbs for a week or so in order to figure out whether you are going low enough to really get into ketosis. It won't feel good at first, so plan to try your experiment for a few weeks at least. More likely a couple of months will give you a better picture.

[Brewer5]

I have always liked Chris Kresser in the past. I don't think there is anything wrong with what you posted -- I just think he's wrong. Lol.

^ I am just being a smart-ass. I have plenty of things to say when I am not stuck on a tiny phone.

This is some pretty deep stuff. I better eat a lot of coconut oil so my ketones are firing full-force.... I'll be back!

[Alisonlcarver]

Screen Shot 2016-01-04 at 3.25.00 PM.png

 

Interesting thoughts (in chart format) from Chris Kresser about carb recommendations.

 

I got a couple of ebooks from him by signing up on his website. I find him to be VERY well-reasoned. In the one called "The Low Down on Low Carb," he writes about how for some people, ketogenic diets work beautifully. Keto can be used to treat certain medical conditions with excellent results. But for others, it makes more sense (medically speaking) to take a moderate carb approach. In his view, it depends on what medical conditions you might or might not have as to what the ideal carb intake might be for you as an individual. 

 

Ali and Laura, I think you'd both benefit from reading this ebook (it is really a series of articles by him and two of his staff dietitians) since you both are wanting to get pregnant. One of dietitians writes about some carb recommendations regarding fertility and fetal development.

 

Now when I listen to or read Jimmy Moore or Dr David Perlmutter, I also find them to be well-reasoned. So I'm not saying that I know that they are wrong. Not at all. However, I am appreciating that Chris Kresser is pointing out that one size does not fit all. It does make sense that it would depend upon what a person is dealing with - like pre-diabetes or diabetes, hypothyroidism, etc. as to how they would want to proceed with their carb intake.

 

We can experiment and figure out what works for us as individuals. If things aren't working well or if our medical situation is more complicated, we might want to work with a knowledgeable professional to tweak things. I found an MD who understands functional medicine and leans that way. She has a nutritionist who works with her who "gets it" in terms of things like the Whole 30, ketogenic diets, and the like. They have helped me with some supplements that address some of the medical conditions I deal with. But I still needed Whole 30 to get me back on track when I was sinking this fall.

From that chart I should eat fairly high-carb since I am active. Sweet potatoes, butternut squash, and fresh fruit all around!

[Alisonlcarver]

Agreed that the Whole30 is BY DEFINITION not meant to be a Whole365.  They actually warn AGAINST that in the official literature.  Trying to adhere slavishly and perfectly to the template at all times with all foods and with feelings of guilt, shame or disappointment when you don't or can't would be, in my (non-medical) opinion, the form of disordered eating known as "orthorexia nervosa" - a compulsion with following rules rigidly regarding eating patterns.  There will be times that we will eat JUST BECAUSE it's delicious, less than 4 hours since our last "template" meal (or in addition to).  Just like my extra serving of butter chicken!  What we have to be very, very careful about is rationalizing a food choice as "healthy" or "less bad."  And we have to be prepared to pay the price of increased cravings and/or hormonal or gut disruption because of the food.  And guess what, sometimes it will STILL be worth it.  But I think those "worth it" times will decrease dramatically as our experience as Dragon Slayers goes on, especially if the food in choice contains sugar (even just natural fruit sugar).

 

Next time, run the "worth it" scenario and maybe you'll decide that a packet of coconut butter (dopamine rush from the fat but no sugar) will do just fine.  Or maybe nothing at all, or herbal tea (side note: I had a nice cup of herbal tea with almond milk a few days ago and really enjoyed it.  I didn't have it during Whole30 because I didn't - and still don't - know all of the additives in the almond milk, other than that it has no sweeteners.  On closer inspection, I found out that the tea has artificial flavours and soy lecithin.  Hoo boy!).  Or maybe you'll decide that the banana and the nut butter ARE worth it (and enjoy the HECK out of it), but remembering that your body is going to react to them very similarly to a candy bar.  And if it suddenly becomes a "treat" that you set up once a week, or once a day and you start looking forward to it, or fantasizing about it, then we'll be here to pull you back from the edge.

 

I know already that my next Whole30 needs to be nut and seed-free. 

 

I think Sara hit the nail on the head with this, Ali.  You're having so much angst because you personally don't really believe that a banana and nut butter is okay.  We're not here to tell you whether it IS or ISN'T, for YOU.  That's what makes the Whole30 so hard, and so valuable.  Only YOU can decide the right answer for YOU.  Which is a lot harder than just mindlessly following the rules - you've moved the decision-making back into the pre-frontal cortex (or out of, I can't remember!).  It's the OPPOSITE of the decision-making that gets done for you by default DURING the Whole30.  It's similar to determining the optimal carb intake for YOU.  There are lots of studies to suggest one thing or another, but you won't know what's truly optimal for YOU until YOU experiment with it.

 

Unfortunately, I do know about orthorexia.  High school. Two years. Gotta be careful that the past doesn't resurface! 

 

You girls have some great advice and insight!  Thank goodness for you girls!!!  I guess I am still figuring out a balance between doing a Whole 30 and figuring out how to incorporate 'treats' and off-plan foods occasionally.  I have not eaten off-plan yet, but I'm sure I will sometime.  I'm still not really craving anything off-plan.  You guys, I have come across some really excellent new recipes this week.  Today I made Melissa Joulwon's chocolate chili (again) and topped it with a new spicy mayonnaise.  It's so easy.  I mix homemade mayo with some Frank's original red hot sauce and BAM, spicy mayo.  I made it to put on top of homemade sushi, whenever I get around to that, but put it on top of my chili instead.  So good!  Also, I made a new mayo tonight using lime juice and dry mustard instead of lemon juice.  I really can't taste a difference, but it's good!  And I used the lime mayo to make some egg salad.  So. Freakin'. Good.  Anyway, I guess at this point I am still evaluating each meal to make sure it is 'best' and not just 'better than' or a meal that I have rationalized.  (During a previous Whole 30, which can hardly be called a true Whole 30, I occasionally had celery and sunflower nut butter as a meal.  Yeaaaa.) 

 

It's not that I don't think a banana and nut butter is OK (or not OK, I guess).  I think a fruit and nut are actually very healthy foods, when eaten in moderation and at appropriate times, and not as a response to a craving.  My problem with it was that I was eating it when not hungry as a dessert/snack replacement.  Sure, it was better than eating cookies and milk, but it still wasn't ideal since I wasn't hungry.  Trial and error, I guess.  Is anyone else tired of talking about my banana and nut butter?

[Alisonlcarver]

I'm so glad you are all here for these kinds of discussions.  My moods have been up and down dramatically over the past week.  Last Thursday (NYE, the day of the buttered squid, as it shall henceforth be known), I was in a serious funk all day up until I got home and got ready to go out with my husband.  I worked out that day and felt disgusted and ashamed the whole time, at the body fat I have put on and the loss of strength from not working out as regularly in November & December.  I was seriously contemplating going back to IIFYM just for the month of January in a desperate attempt to quickly drop some weight/body fat.  And yes, put myself back into starvation mode, and mess up my hormones and get non-sustainable results that would have me running back to the Whole30 (you can see I talked myself out of that).

 

Yet, the very next day I worked out and felt much more positive.  Same body.  Same relatively weaker performance in the gym.  Then yesterday (Monday), I was back to feeling gross and disappointed during my workout.  And hungry!  I ate my template lunch (de-constructed sushi with avocado & mayo for fat, plus a large salad of mixed greens with EVOO) and still felt hungry so I had mixed salted nuts AND a coconut butter packet and finally managed to stop at half a Larabar (the first time I have been able to stop without eating the whole thing).

 

I don't know if this is all PMS-related (I don't track ovulation, but maybe I'm actually getting a "true" period this month vs. just a forced period from the synthetic hormones in the BCP).

 

I might have to actually track my carb intake to try out true low-carb/ketosis levels or accept that I do better (especially mood-wise) with moderate carbs.  Only one way to find out, for me!

 

I'm sorry you were in a funk, Lauren!  I don't know much about IIFYM but I'm glad you are still here.  I am with Sara and wondering if some of the food reintros that you have done may be altering your mood?  Or there's always the female hormones to blame (those little punks.)  Are you still feeling your NSV's?  Whenever I get discouraged, I try to remember my NSV's and don't look at the scale or in the mirror if that is what is discouraging me.  And I wear flowy yoga pants, because those ALWAYS fit perfectly.  

 

I asked previously on another forum about how Whole 30 was different from a low-cab diet like Atkins (or keto, I guess) and the moderator told me that Whole 30 is not low-carb, but that it is healthy carbs from fruits and veggies.  She also said that she noticed within herself that she felt depressed when she did not eat starchy carbs a few times a day, so she incorporates potatoes, squash, beets, etc. in her diet and that stabilized her mood.  I have never tried low-carb Paleo-style so can't say what effect it would have on me.  And while I am marathon-training, I do not plan to find out.  But I guess the moral of all of this is that although the Whole 30 is done and you are reintroducing new foods, it's still (and always will be) a personal experiment of one.  If Keto works for you, then that's great!  If not, then you can always come back to the template Whole 30 and figure out things from there.  I am still self-experimenting with nuts and Crio Bru--yea yea, still with the Crio Bru.  It would be so nice if someone could just tell us what to eat, but since we are riding our own bikes we get to figure that out for ourselves.  It's like you said, now that we are making the decisions of what to eat, when to eat, is the food worth it, what are the consequences, etc., it is HARDER!  Much harder!  Maybe that's why I haven't eaten anything off-plan yet...

[Alisonlcarver]

Brewer pointed out to me that Kresser is selling a program. That reminds me of a point That Sugar Film makes about the sugar industry not wanting the public to know that sugar is bad with a capital B - he has something to gain by keeping people conflicted about how many carbs they should eat. Hm. That's an interesting thought. I'm not maligning his character - I don't know the guy. Maybe he is keeping people conflicted for his own benefit, maybe he isn't. But it's something to consider. Maybe I should've waited to write about what I was thinking. 

 

I'm with you.  Now that I have researched the aspects of business and advertisement in nutrition and foods, I have to ask how credible the source is.  If there is a monetary gain or a possible conflict of interest, that creates a bias. 

 

However, for an expert in the field who knows his stuff, it would be dumb NOT to try to make money off of what he knows.

[Alisonlcarver]

Sorry for monopolizing the forum, you guys.  It helps me to focus when I write back to one person at a time. 

[Brewer5]

Rob RoswdLe

 

 

Man.... you really did butcher it!      LOL.  I just now really looked at it.

[Brewer5]

Ladies, this was me RIGHT after my first Whole 30.  Lauren, I know you will appreciate this!  

 

The sad part is......  I consider myself a pretty smart person.  And I am more educated about proper nutrition than anyone else I know IRL.  Seriously.  So......  this was all just the effect these foods had on my brain.  They just took over.  It's scary!

 

THIS is what I am trying to save you from.  I've been thinking about it a lot tonight, and I realize I can't really save anyone.  We all have to save ourselves.  But, I always feel like -- no matter how crappy my struggles are -- they serve a purpose.  All of this has helped me get to where I am today.   And if it helps even one of you, even in a tiny way, then my time here was well-spent.  

 

 

Well, here I am, finally starting this thread after knowing I've needed to for several days now.

 

I finished my first Whole 30 on May 30.  Went out with a bang by sitting down to dinner at a new Mexican restaurant we wanted to check out -- and therefore doing NO official, careful reintroduction phase whatsoever.

 

It seemed like a good idea at the time.   

 

{Actually, it didn't.  But it did seem like an "okay" idea at the time.  I thought I could keep things under control and go right back to healthy eating, because I felt SO good.}

 

Since then:

 

We have gone to the movies and pigged out on popcorn and chocolate covered macadamia nuts.

 

We got Steak N Shake (no buns) and I ate the fries AND the mint oreo milkshake that somehow I heard my own voice ordering in the speaker.

 

My mother-in-law came to visit (she hasn't been here to stay with us in many years) -- and we went out for ice cream no less than 3 times.  We went out to eat at 2 different Mexican restaurants.  We had walking tacos at the ball diamond.

 

My oldest son turned 13 and I made a "Paleo" flourless chocolate cake that is unbelievably awesome.  Even though I know that 70%+ dark chocolate gives me heart palpitations, I went right ahead and had a piece.  And a piece the next day at my aunt's house.  Along with some cherry wine.  And too much coffee.  And Tostitos chips with a cheesy dip of some kind.  

 

Today I had my post-workout banana & grass-fed whey protein and then proceeded to finish off 1/2 pint of Ben & Jerry's Truffle Trifecta.  Why?  Because it was here, in my face, and it needed to go.  And it was Leg Day at the gym.  And because... ~no good reason~.  I just DID.

 

Tonight the kids and I are going to go get some Panda Express and rent a movie.  (We try to keep that as gluten-free as possible, but I know it's still in the sauces.)  

 

And tomorrow I am going to put my training wheels back on -- because I feel like I have wrecked my bicycle!

 

I have a lot more thoughts I want to post here later -- some things I need to work through and say out loud.  May be pretty boring to others, but keeping a food log here and being held accountable to it in my mind was SO helpful during my Whole 30.  I really feel like I need to get back to it.  

 

 

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

Yes, Ali, you might be a little bit afraid of riding your own bike!  And talk about the banana and nut butter as much as you need.   Spicy mayo sounds good.  My tolerance for (and appreciation of) spicy foods has gone WAY up since Whole30, maybe now that my taste buds have been de-tuned from sugar.  I might have to try that with Tabasco.  In the meantime, I'm enjoying my mayo mixed with wasabi (not sure if it's REAL wasabi from the Japanese wasabi plant or just food colouring and horseradish).  I don't even know (or care right now) if horseradish is Whole30-compliant.

 

Brewer, thanks so much for digging up that post!  I'm so thankful that this thread was here to get me right back onto my bike after Day3 of Paleo baking.  I think I'm really benefitting from the insights and observations of my carefully structured reintroductions.  I'm so glad I've had the time to devote to reintroductions.  I wouldn't have had that if my trip to Europe went ahead because I would have been face-first into pancakes in the Netherlands, Belgian chocolates in, well, Belgium and macarons and other French patisseries in France!  (All of that still might happen, but at least I'll have some good knowledge under my belt - and this thread to come back to!).

 

Ya, not sure what's been up with my mood or hunger.  It's been almost 8 hours since breakfast and I'm not hungry.  I should eat my packed M2 (leftover butter chicken - YUM) but I want to zip to the gym first!  Maybe I'll eat and then go...

 

Cheers,

 

-Lauren (GGG)

 

P.S. - YES to the flowy yoga pants.  I have "elephant pants."  I bought them in Thailand.  They are soft, loose-fitting cotton pants with an elephant print.  So, I can call them elephant pants both because they have elephants but also because I tend to wear them when I am feeling as big as an elephant.

[Brewer5]

THIS was at the end of my Keto Whole 30 -- dated 1/29/15 (almost a year ago):

 

--  "This Whole 30 is different than my others because, here on Day 30, I do not see an ending to something -- but only a beginning.  And I really, truly mean that.  I am not going to stick my head in a gallon of ice cream tomorrow and come up feeling like a different person.  An addicted person.  A person with brain fog who has allowed food cravings to take over again.  I’ve been down that road -- I already KNOW where it goes.  I’ve traveled it enough times to know that the ending is always the same.  And you know what?  That’s boring.  I’m over it.  I’m ready to go to new places... like Lewis & Clark.  I’m going to be BRAVE and forge ahead on my keto path.  Who wants to come along?     "

 

-----------

 

My husband's grandpa passed away RIGHT after this.  We went on vacation, and I ate what I wanted.  Ice cream & tortilla chips come to mind, for sure.  WINE.  I tried to maintain my keto ways... but I know I ate junk.  I know I did.  I felt SO GOOD and I was SO determined when we left for our trip.... and it all just went right out the window again.

 

I've only gotten really serious about Whole 30 and keto again in the past few months.  This time, I will not do another Whole 30.  If I believe something needs to come out of my diet, I will do it -- because I've realized that I need to make my OWN rules, and not try to follow anyone else's.  If I decide it is detrimental to my health -- physical, mental, emotional -- it doesn't just need to come out for 30 days.  It just needs to be out.

 

I don't smoke cigarettes for special occasions.  I don't "relax" on vacation and smoke them.  They aren't for birthdays, Christmas, or any other holidays.  I know that if I had one, I would be right back to wanting more.  These foods are no different -- for me.

[littleg]

 

I don't smoke cigarettes for special occasions.  I don't "relax" on vacation and smoke them.  They aren't for birthdays, Christmas, or any other holidays.  I know that if I had one, I would be right back to wanting more.  These foods are no different -- for me.

 

Maybe I need some ketones to make my brain sort this out.  You know that feeling when a word or memory is right on the tip of your tongue but you just can't think of it.  That is how I feel about all this stuff.  I feel like I'm just at the cusp of some revelation, just not there yet.

 

Here is what is bouncing around in there right now:

 

That quote makes me sad.  The thought of never eating mom MIL's homemade fudge or her homemade rolls with butter EVER AGAIN truly makes me sad.  But just like an alcoholic or smoker I really can't have just one.  Because it never is just one.  But this is what makes it harder about being a food addict than a drug/alcohol addict - you can't ever get IT ALL out of your life.  But I'm sure addicts all feel sad at the beginning of their journey.  These habits are all about pleasure.  

 

I was looking on pubmed for articles about ketosis and pregnancy.  No human studies but one mouse study that wasn't good.  But from looking briefly at it, it looks like those rats were starved... so maybe not quite the same as nutritional ketosis.

 

Then the "oops we have a study because lots of people starved" also says that there are fetal problems... but again, mom was starving - not in NK

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944

 

http://www.nufs.sjsu.edu/clariebh/Dutch%20Study.pdf

 

So then I tried google and found a few bloggers who were in ketosis during pregnancy.  

 

http://mariamindbodyhealth.com/keto-pregnancy/

 

And clearly the Inuit populations somehow have healthy babies - and they ARE in NK.  

 

Brewer - why do I keep doing this to myself...? Back and forth, back and forth.  

[Brewer5]

littleg, I have thought of you so many times re: fertility.

On one hand, I want to say -- what you are doing isn't working, so what could it hurt to try? And you could potentially get your binges under control.

I also think like you do, as far as: There are populations that have survived and thrived on a "ketogenic" diet forever and ever and ever -- and yes, that includes the mamas. And the children.

On the other hand, I have heard the stuff about more carbs for pregnancy. And I don't ever want to hold your hand while we travel further away from a baby.

But that brings me right back to point #1.

[Brewer5]

Also, as we have discussed, I am not a thyroid expert. I know that my mom has been on medications for as long as I can remember... And that I don't want that to be me. That's ~about~ as far as my thyroid knowledge goes, because I have never had a reason to dig deep on that subject.

The Ron Rosedale podcast -- he talked about your thyroid just doing what it is supposed to do on a ketogenic diet.

I wonder how your medication plays into how you feel on your keto attempts.

[SimpleNotEasy]

THIS was at the end of my Keto Whole 30 -- dated 1/29/15 (almost a year ago):

 

--  "This Whole 30 is different than my others because, here on Day 30, I do not see an ending to something -- but only a beginning.  And I really, truly mean that.  I am not going to stick my head in a gallon of ice cream tomorrow and come up feeling like a different person.  An addicted person.  A person with brain fog who has allowed food cravings to take over again.  I’ve been down that road -- I already KNOW where it goes.  I’ve traveled it enough times to know that the ending is always the same.  And you know what?  That’s boring.  I’m over it.  I’m ready to go to new places... like Lewis & Clark.  I’m going to be BRAVE and forge ahead on my keto path.  Who wants to come along?     "

 

-----------

 

My husband's grandpa passed away RIGHT after this.  We went on vacation, and I ate what I wanted.  Ice cream & tortilla chips come to mind, for sure.  WINE.  I tried to maintain my keto ways... but I know I ate junk.  I know I did.  I felt SO GOOD and I was SO determined when we left for our trip.... and it all just went right out the window again.

 

I've only gotten really serious about Whole 30 and keto again in the past few months.  This time, I will not do another Whole 30.  If I believe something needs to come out of my diet, I will do it -- because I've realized that I need to make my OWN rules, and not try to follow anyone else's.  If I decide it is detrimental to my health -- physical, mental, emotional -- it doesn't just need to come out for 30 days.  It just needs to be out.

 

I don't smoke cigarettes for special occasions.  I don't "relax" on vacation and smoke them.  They aren't for birthdays, Christmas, or any other holidays.  I know that if I had one, I would be right back to wanting more.  These foods are no different -- for me.

 

Brewer - Thanks for posting your experiences. It does help me to read where you have been bc it is similar to where I have been and am. And to see that you've come to a different place.

 

These past few months where you have really gotten serious, and determined that you need to make your own rules to take the detrimental foods out for good (not just 30 days) - can you pinpoint the shift that took place in your thinking? Cause you were doing awesome post-keto Whole 30, then you had some months in there of doing your own thing, then you hit a tipping point and decided to do something different again. Was it ownership? That you realized you needed to make your own rules for your own well-being? Was it the camping trip where you drank wine, then you hit that point the next day like - I'm never going back to this place again? I feel like I'm at a shifting point also - as Laura said - but I wonder if I can be trusted since I am only days past finishing the Whole 30.

 

As I was messaging you yesterday, things I'm certain of at this point:

-I do not want to go back down the sugar road EVER again. Wine falls into this category for me, as well.

-Whole 30 was a good way for me to turn around and head back in the right direction.

-Processed foods don't have anything good to offer, except taste. 

 

So there are certain foods that I'm not adding back in, at all. Sugar is the primary one. I just can't moderate it. Like you said, you do not have a cigarette for special occasions; I will not have sugar for special occasions. It isn't happening because I know where that leads. Been there, done that. No more. I'm not going to focus on the aspects of this that I know could be hard "down the road" (future holidays or whatever when I may miss the particular dessert that I would've had in the past). Instead, I AM going to focus on today and how I feel so FREE to not be living in addiction. 

 

Processed foods are another. Obviously there are different categories of processed foods. I'm talking about things like tortilla chips, potato chips, french fries. I fell on my face with a serving of sweet potato fries on 1/1/16 (mainly because I ate them without asking myself whether they were even worth it - like you said, I just heard my voice ordering them), but they did not seem to cause me craving problems or mood problems in the days which followed. Not going there again. 

 

I do want to try doing reintros with a few of the foods that I may want to allow if they don't cause me problems. The sprinkling of cheese on a salad seemed to not be an issue. I also want to cook some things in butter and see how that works out. I'd like to find out whether a NorCal Margarita causes me harm or if I can enjoy a non-sugary drink without reawakening the sugar dragon. Perhaps testing whether a small amount of soy in a marinade is enough to avoid that meat. I suppose this could fall into the processed foods category (if I buy a roast that has soy marinade) but it's not an everyday thing and if it doesn't send me into a negative cycle, maybe it would be an ok convenience? Or maybe not & I learn to buy a plain roast and make my own marinade.

 

Grains do similar things in the body as sugars (they turn into sugars when broken down, so this makes sense, right), so there is no need for me to reintro those.

 

I seem to not have a problem with sweet potatoes and butternut squash, but I will continue to evaluate whether I am kidding myself on these. If lower carb is 50-75g of carbs per day, there is room for a serving of one of those veggies. Or a small green apple or half a cup of blueberries.

 

I do take thyroid medication, so there is that to consider. Maybe somehow that contributed to my hair loss on ketosis before. I've read a little about supplementing with biotin as a way to slow hairloss (as mentioned on the Ron Rosedale podcast with Jimmy Moore) and am not sure - I want to discuss this with a nutritionist next week. My lab results from when I was in full ketosis had a few things that I did not like and I am still researching those. 

 

These are my thoughts for this morning. 

[ArtFossil]

Sara, I would urge you to find a smart endocrinologist for your thyroid management. Someone who is rigorous about testing, knows what your target range should be and will not rest until you are maintaining that range. They are hard to find!

I had my thyroid irradiated in 1997 (still have partial function, which makes things tricky) and it wasn't until 3 years ago that I got regulated!

My (smart) endocrinologist made me rabid about making up a missed dose, had me experiment with taking it at night (didn't work for me) and tested and adjusted every three months until I stabilized. (Now, I get tested just once a year.). I also learned that for me I have to take Synthroid, not the generics because you can't rely on the consistency of a generic when your prescription is refilled. I.e, the fillers may be different and that's enough to get me off whack. Also, some people need T3 (Cytomel) in addition to T4 (Synthroid) to function best (not me, but it's part of the experimentation necessary if your thyroid isn't quite where it should be or you're not feeling as good as you could.

Having your thyroid even a little out of whack affects one's whole body, including mood. Having it functioning properly means that I feel fabulous.

[Brewer5]

 

 

That quote makes me sad.  The thought of never eating mom MIL's homemade fudge or her homemade rolls with butter EVER AGAIN truly makes me sad.  But just like an alcoholic or smoker I really can't have just one.  Because it never is just one.  But this is what makes it harder about being a food addict than a drug/alcohol addict - you can't ever get IT ALL out of your life.  But I'm sure addicts all feel sad at the beginning of their journey.  These habits are all about pleasure.  

 

 

^ This is all true, and you are beginning to see it crystal-clearly.  

 

I can guarantee you that there are people here who do not like my comparison of cigarettes to food.  But I can also guarantee you that it is EXACTLY the same.  

 

It is socially acceptable to quit smoking (now -- didn't used to be!) (<-- think about that one for awhile).  

 

But I see folks who are worried about offending someone if they don't eat their special treats.  I have seen people here stop their Whole 30's to eat someone else's "special food"!

 

I will say what I have told my family in regards to the kids forEVER:  "It's not a treat if it makes them feel bad and get in trouble."

 

Cigarettes make me feel bad, and they make me get in trouble.  Tortilla chips make me feel bad, and they make me get in trouble.  Wine makes me feel bad, and it makes me get in trouble.  Ice cream makes me feel bad, and it makes me get in trouble.

 

​Fill in the blank with APPLES or whatever you want.  It does not matter what it is, or where it came from -- if it has an unhealthy hold on you, it needs to go.

 

Of course it makes you feel sad.  That is the nature of addiction.  It's called withdrawal.  And guess what?  It's temporary.

 

No, I have not -- and never will -- get completely away from smoking.  OR wine.  I have to walk through a garage full of smoke, into a kitchen full of old ladies drinking wine -- at every. single. big family holiday I go to.  I have a niece and her boyfriend who still smoke outside my home when they visit, and I smell it on them when they come in the house.  When I give her a hug.  I can smell it from a mile away.

 

Here's the thing:  It has literally ZERO hold on me anymore.  I struggled with that addiction for 20 years.  Yes.  20.  I started young, and I grew up surrounded by it.  Got it in the womb, via second-hand and probably even directly.  Hey, it was the 70's -- that's what everybody did, right?

 

I was not tempted by the wine at Thanksgiving or Christmas.  I walk past it at the store without a thought.  It's not even there.  It doesn't even register.  These things have done pissed me off enough that I have broken free of them.

 

Same with the "food". (If you can even call it that.)  It's all feelings.  Emotions.  And they are all tied up in a great big bunch of crap that HARMS my body.  

 

I'm over it.  The outcome will always be the same.  Expecting anything different -- ever -- was just a rookie mistake.  I think just about everyone does it, and I'm not sure how many people ever really get to the point where I am.  I can just tell you this -- it's not sad.  It's FREE.  Like a whole new person.