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littleg

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These past few months where you have really gotten serious, and determined that you need to make your own rules to take the detrimental foods out for good (not just 30 days) - can you pinpoint the shift that took place in your thinking? Cause you were doing awesome post-keto Whole 30, then you had some months in there of doing your own thing, then you hit a tipping point and decided to do something different again. Was it ownership? That you realized you needed to make your own rules for your own well-being? Was it the camping trip where you drank wine, then you hit that point the next day like - I'm never going back to this place again? I feel like I'm at a shifting point also - as Laura said - but I wonder if I can be trusted since I am only days past finishing the Whole 30.

 

Actually,  I decided about a year ago that it would be my last Whole 30.

 

Throughout the year, as I was riding my own bike, I would have moments where I thought, "I need to do another Whole 30." and my next thought was, "No, you don't.  You need to clean things up, and you need to own it."

 

My experience after a Whole 30 has been rebellion.  Taking these things away and saying "I can't" have them is not what I need.  Ever.  Not anymore.  They were all great learning experiences -- and I am thankful for them, because they helped me get to where I am today.  But I CAN have whatever I want, whenever I want. Just like I CAN go smoke cigarettes right now, but I CHOOSE not to.  I COULD crack open a bottle of wine -- but I don't *want* to.

 

In the fall, I reached a point of fuzziness... just not feeling as good as I wanted to.  I had a lot of stuff to get done (don't we always?) and I knew I needed to feel my best.  I had been taking care of everyone else (including beginning Feingold with my son in July, which was a HUGE undertaking.  Huge.)

 

At some point, I decided to read through Grain Brain again -- with my highlighter this time.  I carried it around with me for quite awhile, wherever I went.  Walking and reading, reading and walking.  Then I moved on to Brain Maker and, wow.  So much good stuff!  So I was making small changes this entire time.  I was posting here again regularly, incorporating vegetables with every meal and snack, etc.  Feeling better.

 

Honestly, what made me decide to go back to keto was when Karen started asking questions, and we started discussing Keto Clarity, etc.  She got her new Ketonix and I thought, "okay, it's time".  Let's dust that thing off!   :lol:   It had been in a drawer all year, along with my glucose monitor.  ...Since our funeral trip in February.

 

ALSO -- the puppy.  I was just feeling like such total crap with the lack of sleep, I can't tell you.  Keto made that so, so, so much more bearable.  I could function again without the brain-numbing carbs.  And it was a great time for me to make the transition because I am not currently lifting, due to the addition of puppy.  I think too many people want to switch their body over to ketosis ~and keep doing all of the same things they have been doing~ and it just doesn't work that way.  You need a transition period, for sure.

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I just walked monster #1 in 6 degrees IN THE SUN!!!! while listening to that podcast.  I heard the hair stuff and the thyroid stuff (I'm about halfway through the whole episode).  Hair stuff: the hair that grows in is thinner and shorter.  I don't know that I buy that is "good".  Strong hair and nails seems to me to be a sign of health...  When I went paleo and then started increasing gelatin my nails turned into super strong, never chipping nails.  In terms of the thyroid - the main idea there seems to be a down regulated thyroid is good because it means your "engine" is less fired up, again, I don't know if I buy that.  To me that is a response of a challenged system.  I suppose if you feel great and have lots of energy AND low thyroid function that might be good, but if one is like I was (low TSH, low free T3, falling out hair, low body temps, low heart rate (<50 resting), possibly messed up cycles (might not be related) I'm not sure I believe that is a good thing.  Per their discussion I was the poster child (in terms of markers) of this heightening state.  My HDL is >100, TG<50, TSH was low, free T3 was low, good muscle mass, etc) but I felt like total crap.  Going on desiccated thyroid helped.  

 

And Brewer - I've had the same thoughts about fertility lately - when we started trying (about 1 year ago) I was recently off a W30, had years of paleo under my belt... a little too high on paleo candy (dark chocolate, dried fruit) but otherwise mostly free of SAD contaminants.  And clearly my body was not fertile.  This tells me that a change certainly seems that it may be a step in the right direction... BUT there is SO little out there about ketosis and pregnancy.  And even though I will purposefully go against all mainstream chronic disease management medical advice... for this I'm afraid to buck the "usual" advice.  But, to be honest, if I got pregnant this whole discussion wouldn't matter anyway... because all I wanted was cheese and carbs :)

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Oh, and one more thing, Brewer, I'm sorry... Keto Clarity is not a book for me.  Taubes' book, sure, but this book is kind of pushing me over the edge.  Lay person writing a book for a lay audience.  Which is great - lots of people need that - but I need real science written by scientists.  To be honest, its the "expert" quotes from Stephanie Person that got to me... it is completely misleading to spin her as an "expert"... which makes me call into question all the other "experts" he quotes.  So, I need another suggestion :)  Is this Perlmutter maybe more up my alley?  Or Finney?  What is the most science-y of the nutritional ketosis books you've read?

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I'm not sure who can argue with Dr. Perlmutter's science (except Chris Kresser, of course!). :D His books are so good.

Phinney & Volek's books basically solidified everything I had learned in Keto Clarity, and then some. I will flip through them again, but yes -- very scientific, the way I remember it. Almost hard to get through.

Stephanie Person -- I liked her podcast, too. When I went to find more of her stuff, and came across her YouTube videos... Good Lord. I don't know if I have ever been so annoyed by a personality. Lol

But I don't discount every MD in the book, who is using a keto diet with their patients, just because of Stephanie Person. It's still a great read, and especially for people who want all of the FAQ's and "how to's". I recommend it because I have not seen anything better for getting people started, at least, on the road to understanding.

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Sara: I still think maybe you were too high on protein & carbs to be "full keto" with your previous attempts. You heard what Rosedale had to say about protein -- really made me think. Because that is how Perlmutter is, too. Protein is in NO way supposed to be the star of the show. Do you think maybe this affected your blood tests? I have no idea. Just throwing it out there.

I am excited about my blood ketone testing because -- I can talk keto all day long -- but without the numbers to prove it, I mean, who knows? I feel freakin great -- but, could I feel better?

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Those YouTube videos are what made me so cranky after I read her quotes in the book. If I had just heard the podcast I don't think I would've minded her quotes in the book :)

And in all honesty he I did just get to the chapter about the scientific evidence... So maybe I will change my mind!

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Sara: I still think maybe you were too high on protein & carbs to be "full keto" with your previous attempts. You heard what Rosedale had to say about protein -- really made me think. Because that is how Perlmutter is, too. Protein is in NO way supposed to be the star of the show. Do you think maybe this affected your blood tests? I have no idea. Just throwing it out there.

I am excited about my blood ketone testing because -- I can talk keto all day long -- but without the numbers to prove it, I mean, who knows? I feel freakin great -- but, could I feel better?

 

Well, according to MFP where I was tracking this stuff, I kept my protein at around 20% of calories, which was also close to what Phinney and Volek recommend - 1-1.5g/kilo of body weight. Wish I had done blood testing to verify what I was estimating on MFP.

 

My goals were 5-10% carbs, 70-80% fat, 15-20% protein. I usually hit in that range while I was tracking. So idk.

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Sara, I forgot you had come back and updated with more accurate numbers/percentages.  

 

I still had it in my head what you originally said, which was coming out to like 128g + of protein and 50-60 carbs.

 

Your numbers sound good.  So idk either.  What was on your blood work after keto that worries you?  Do you mind sharing?  I am just curious.  I haven't done any blood work yet.

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Correction: Actually, Phinney recommends 1.5-2g protein/kilo.

Just saw your question... Will reply when I'm home w results in front of me. :)

But see -- that is SO much more protein than Rosedale talked about. I think it depends on who you talk to, and even then -- I still think it all comes down to blood testing. Because we are all so different in terms of what is needed to get us there.

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Definitely blood testing will show if the body is making plenty of ketones, which in turn make energy from fat stores more accessible.

At least according to Phinney (I know others would argue this point), for weight loss, and even weight (and lean body mass) maintenance, the total calories also matter as well as grams of proteins.

Lots of science involved in all of this. Besides the above, other medical conditions factor into the process of having a healthy body (everyone's ultimate goal, right? Body, mind & spirit.)

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I have no contribution to make regarding keto. You guys are super advanced. ;)

But I have been reading 'Why we get fat' by Gary Taubes. Very interesting read. I'm about halfway through. So far he is dispelling the calories in-calories out myths and it makes so much sense. I used to think, if I eat something that is 70 calories over my daily calorie allotment that I could just exercise and burn off 70 extra calories to break even, but now I see the error in that logic. Thank goodness that is not the case. Thank goodness calories are not what make us fat. I believe most people who are doing Paleo or Whole 30 are proof that the calories in-calories out theory is false. I am eating more calories than I ever have, and I am becoming more lean. Imagine that. There is so much more going on in our bodies besides net calories, that make us fat or lean.

I am still waiting to hear what Taubes has to say...he is still dispelling myths. But when I get to that, I'll post his words of wisdom and guidance. :)

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This is all interesting stuff and I have read it with eagerness.  For the heck of it, I decided to punch in my "usual" carbs for the day, based on my most common meals.  I deliberately tried to over-estimate the portion sizes, since I think I have a natural under-estimation bias.  It came out at 100g total carbs (35g fiber = 65g net carbs, right?).  So too high for a ketogenic diet, but within striking distance.  Definitely on the low-moderate intake.  If I drop my morning clementine orange and use Tabasco instead of salsa, drop my post-workout squash and avoid nuts as a fat source, I get closer to 35-40g net carbs.  That might do it for me.  Only one way to find out!

 

The bigger problem is protein - I was actually surprised at how many grams of protein I was getting with no supplementation at all (I used to add at least one scoop of whey protein and a high-protein bar like Quest AND a serving of Greek yogourt to get to my daily goal of 135g protein).  I came in at 130g protein.  Which is probably great if I'm lifting really heavy, but it sounds like a ketogenic diet isn't necessarily compatible with heavy lifting, unless I want to do CKD or BUILD mass (which I don't).  Since ketosis has muscle-sparing impacts, I could eat less protein.  The easiest thing to drop then would be pre- and post-workout chicken and just exercise fasted (putting me at ~100g protein for the day).  I do wonder if I should have *something* (and if so, what?) post-workout.  1 oz. of chicken and a very small portion of carb to get the insulin to help cell storage?  Based on my very scientific research (Google!), the jury seems to be out on optimal post-workout intake while on a ketogenic diet.

 

Then I come back to why do I even want to experiment with keto anyway?  I could say for improved mental clarity, but quite frankly, it's the possibility for fat loss.  But it might not support my desired activity types and levels.  And I'd be back to tracking and obsessing about intake, still in search of the Holy Grail.  I think I need a bit more time really getting into a WholeLauren, with whole food choices à la Whole30/paleo and really, really working on the cravings/eating to satiety and not beyond piece.  THEN I can consider keto.

 

Laura, I encourage you to revisit your reasons for wanting to do keto and make sure that you combine it with your doctor's/specialist's input.

 

Technically, I'm not really "done" my Whole30 yet because I'm still working systematically on reintroductions.  Speaking of starchy carbs, I think tomorrow will be oat day (tellingly, the first food combinations I think of with oatmeal include sweets - think oatmeal with raisins or dates and cinnamon.  I will AVOID those, since I want to test the impact of the FOOD itself in terms of gut disruption and NOT muddy the waters too much with the mental aspect of making it SWYPO/high-sugar).

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Then I come back to why do I even want to experiment with keto anyway?  I could say for improved mental clarity, but quite frankly, it's the possibility for fat loss.  But it might not support my desired activity types and levels.  And I'd be back to tracking and obsessing about intake, still in search of the Holy Grail.  I think I need a bit more time really getting into a WholeLauren, with whole food choices à la Whole30/paleo and really, really working on the cravings/eating to satiety and not beyond piece.  THEN I can consider keto.

 

Laura, I encourage you to revisit your reasons for wanting to do keto and make sure that you combine it with your doctor's/specialist's input.

 

Technically, I'm not really "done" my Whole30 yet because I'm still working systematically on reintroductions.  Speaking of starchy carbs, I think tomorrow will be oat day (tellingly, the first food combinations I think of with oatmeal include sweets - think oatmeal with raisins or dates and cinnamon.  I will AVOID those, since I want to test the impact of the FOOD itself in terms of gut disruption and NOT muddy the waters too much with the mental aspect of making it SWYPO/high-sugar).

Good for you for pondering your reasoning for considering keto. Kudos. :)

Good luck with the oats reintro! I really like the oatmeal from Starbucks...I usually get the mixed nut topping to go with it. No added sugar in it and it's very complimentary to the oatmeal. It's salty and almost savory to me.

Today is Day 40 for me. I was thinking earlier if and what I want to reintro. Possibly rice due to sushi, possibly cheese, possibly oats. I've got lots of Whole 30 foods in my fridge right now though and they are so delicious I wonder why I even would want to reintro anything! I've got chocolate chili, chicken salad, egg salad, roasted butternut squash, and baked sweet potatoes. There are two reasons for reintroducing off-plan foods. One is variety, and two is taste. The Whole 30 foods I make have a lot of variety and I am finding new recipes to make, so that's adding even more variety, and they taste delicious. I am just having a hard time even wanting to reintro anything right now. That's ok, right?

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Ok - so to answer your question, Brewer, about my lab results which concern me...

 

Like I was mentioning yesterday, my new MD leans toward a functional medicine approach, so she did not freak at any of my results. I told her I was eating ketogenically and she made note of that. She uses a lab which is very thorough (and pricey, though my insurance did cover it, which is a miracle considering what all they do not usually cover). It's called Health Diagnostic Laboratory. You can see one guy's results on his blog here http://bjjcaveman.com/2015/09/21/reviewing-the-labs-my-lipidologist-ordered/. It's a pretty nifty presentation of the results. His problems are worse than mine, btw. :)

 

My overall cholesterol was fine. But LDL-C was high. Apo-B and LDL-P (which reflect the number of atherogenic lipoproteins) were also high. This may be genetc as opposed to diet-related. A number of the other cholesterol measures were in the "intermediate risk" category. Since there is a family history of heart disease, all of this is a bit concerning. I'm aware that cholesterol levels are not as predictive of heart disease as it was once thought, but this is a more precise measure, so it does have some value and is something to track. One other ratio mentioned on my results was the Apo B:Apo A (which has been shown to be superior to LDL:HDL ratio for predicting risk of heart attack). This ratio was shown to be "increased" for me, so I need to improve the ratio by lowering the Apo B (medication - last resort, imo) and/or increasing the Apo A (by exercise and maybe more omega 3 supplementation).

 

There is a genetic trait called APOE with a lotta numbers after it. My result is 3/4 for this. I'm copying some explanation of what this is about from the other guy's blog. Google has a few additional explanations, so if anyone reading wants more info, be my guest.

  • Apolipoprotein E 3 / 4 – This places me at higher cardiovascular risk. Sometimes these people don’t respond well to statins.  
  • If I ever decided I wanted to take a statin, because of my genetics, I should probably never take a high dose.
  • Some people with a 3/4 have a good response to lifestyle changes.
  • Some of the earlier studies suggested that people with a 3/4 don’t do as well with a high fat diet, but the blogger's doc thinks those studies were pretty poor. That being said it’s probably not a good idea for 3/4's to be on a high saturated fat diet.
  • It’s important for people that are APOE 3/4 to be on adequate amounts of Omega 3s to protect the brain and there are increased risks for Alzheimers in the future.
  •  

My HA1C was optimal and my blood sugar and all of that was good, so no worries about diabetes. Whew! Good news there.

 

Finally, my Anti-Thyroid Peroxidase Antibody level was higher than the reference interval (not extremely, but somewhat). So I do need to follow up with a knowledgeable doctor about that... like Elizabeth suggested earlier. Finding the right endocrinologist appears to be a bit of a job, so I have some work to do to figure that out. 

 

Whew! This was probably way more than anyone wanted to know. :)

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Ali - I typically get them checked when I go for a check up with my family doctor or gyn. Now that I am 45, and have had a set of results that are not ideal (they always were prior to this year), I probably need to make sure I do at least that. Perhaps more often. I'll ask my dr. next time I see her what she recommends.

 

I haven't read that one yet, Brewer. I have heard some of his podcasts about it. Does anything particular stand out to you with regard to my test results and his book?

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I just re-read this and found it helpful. I am going to keep Whole 30-ing until something comes along that is worth it or special. :)

http://whole30.com/step-four-finished/

I think that's a great approach, Alison. After reintroductions. Otherwise, it's hard to tell if something is worth it without knowing how it makes you feel. I reacted very differently to soy post Whole30 than before, as an example, so now I know there are a lot of soy things that would not be worth it.

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Good for you for pondering your reasoning for considering keto. Kudos. :)

Good luck with the oats reintro! I really like the oatmeal from Starbucks...I usually get the mixed nut topping to go with it. No added sugar in it and it's very complimentary to the oatmeal. It's salty and almost savory to me.

Today is Day 40 for me. I was thinking earlier if and what I want to reintro. Possibly rice due to sushi, possibly cheese, possibly oats. I've got lots of Whole 30 foods in my fridge right now though and they are so delicious I wonder why I even would want to reintro anything! I've got chocolate chili, chicken salad, egg salad, roasted butternut squash, and baked sweet potatoes. There are two reasons for reintroducing off-plan foods. One is variety, and two is taste. The Whole 30 foods I make have a lot of variety and I am finding new recipes to make, so that's adding even more variety, and they taste delicious. I am just having a hard time even wanting to reintro anything right now. That's ok, right?

 

Thanks, Ali!  Honestly, I am more excited about the idea of getting into training for an athletic competition (like a marathon or a swim meet) and eating to fuel that.  I'm having withdrawal pangs for my marathon running training group as I read about your training.  Are you doing all of your runs solo or do you have running buddies?  I've done long runs either way, but prefer the social experience of chit-chatting along the way.

 

I can't say that I'm re-introducing foods because I WANT to eat them (other than the buttered squid and popcorn, which led to the overall dairy butter and corn reintro.  I didn't WANT whole kernel corn with my breakfast, but I added it anyway in the spirit of doing a "whole hog" reintroduction).  I'm doing it is a knowledge-gathering exercise and I want to do as many as I can before travel plans or "The Creep" (as Brewer calls him) makes it much harder for me to stick to Whole30 compliant eating.  The more I can do structured reintroductions surrounded by days of compliant Whole30-eating, the more knowledge I can gain about foods specifically, in isolation.  I'm hoping that will help me with "worth it" decisions down the road, because I'll already now how the food is likely to impact me, both physiologically and psychologically.  Oat day tomorrow!  Legumes on the weekend!  (Not following the recommended order, either, just following what makes sense in terms of meals I want to prepare and eat and how time-consuming they are.  Oatmeal will be faster than the lentil loaf I'm considering for Saturday or Sunday night).  Two reintros per week, whether I want to or not, lol!

 

If I haven't mentioned it, we're going to Guam for the first week of February.  All of you are welcome to join us; that's practically Hawaii, right?  It should be fun because it's an American destination vs. an Asian destination.  I think I'm going to get a real kick out of American products and English-language.  I also think eating Whole30-esque (I think I need to just start calling it Paleo, because I'm not going to be reading every label and driving kitchen staff crazy with questions) is going to be easy because we're staying at higher-end hotels.

 

Sara, I'm surprised to see that a diet high in saturated fats is discouraged for people with A3/4 markers, since it's not dietary saturated fat that impacts blood triglyceride/cholesterol levels - it's CARB consumption (as I learned in That Sugar Film).  Seems like out-dated advice to me.

 

P.S. - I NEVER get my blood checked and I don't go for annual check-ups, either (other than PAP).  I'm 33.

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Did you get a small LDL-P count?

Brewer - yeah. My small LDL-P was 943 (nmol/L), which is rated "intermediate risk." The options are "optimal," "intermediate risk," and "high risk." with ranges given for each. The ranges for small LDL-P were <501 optimal, 501-1000 intermediate risk, >1000 high risk. So I was at the top of intermediate.

 

Thanks, Ali!  Honestly, I am more excited about the idea of getting into training for an athletic competition (like a marathon or a swim meet) and eating to fuel that.  I'm having withdrawal pangs for my marathon running training group as I read about your training.  Are you doing all of your runs solo or do you have running buddies?  I've done long runs either way, but prefer the social experience of chit-chatting along the way.

 

I can't say that I'm re-introducing foods because I WANT to eat them (other than the buttered squid and popcorn, which led to the overall dairy butter and corn reintro.  I didn't WANT whole kernel corn with my breakfast, but I added it anyway in the spirit of doing a "whole hog" reintroduction).  I'm doing it is a knowledge-gathering exercise and I want to do as many as I can before travel plans or "The Creep" (as Brewer calls him) makes it much harder for me to stick to Whole30 compliant eating.  The more I can do structured reintroductions surrounded by days of compliant Whole30-eating, the more knowledge I can gain about foods specifically, in isolation.  I'm hoping that will help me with "worth it" decisions down the road, because I'll already now how the food is likely to impact me, both physiologically and psychologically.  Oat day tomorrow!  Legumes on the weekend!  (Not following the recommended order, either, just following what makes sense in terms of meals I want to prepare and eat and how time-consuming they are.  Oatmeal will be faster than the lentil loaf I'm considering for Saturday or Sunday night).  Two reintros per week, whether I want to or not, lol!

 

If I haven't mentioned it, we're going to Guam for the first week of February.  All of you are welcome to join us; that's practically Hawaii, right?  It should be fun because it's an American destination vs. an Asian destination.  I think I'm going to get a real kick out of American products and English-language.  I also think eating Whole30-esque (I think I need to just start calling it Paleo, because I'm not going to be reading every label and driving kitchen staff crazy with questions) is going to be easy because we're staying at higher-end hotels.

 

Sara, I'm surprised to see that a diet high in saturated fats is discouraged for people with A3/4 markers, since it's not dietary saturated fat that impacts blood triglyceride/cholesterol levels - it's CARB consumption (as I learned in That Sugar Film).  Seems like out-dated advice to me.

 

P.S. - I NEVER get my blood checked and I don't go for annual check-ups, either (other than PAP).  I'm 33.

 

 Lauren - how fun to go to Guam! It just sounds cool. :) I'm sure you will enjoy an English speaking setting for a little break. 

 

The reintro thing is confusing, isn't it? Because on the one hand, going whole hog is a good way to arm yourself with information about how the foods affect you. On the other hand, waiting for a "worth it" off plan food seems wise, too. And doesn't Whole 30 sort of recommend both, which are kind of mutually exclusive?

 

I agree that some of the advice printed on the test results is likely outdated. The wheels of change turn slowly in the medical world. I think a lot of doctors are still recommending high carb, low fat! 

 

If you are healthy in your 30's, I'm not sure how often it's necessary to have blood testing done. I probably only did it for pregnancy stuff when I was your age (that sounds like an old geezer thing to say - back in the good old days when I was your age - haha).

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Sara, I wondered if you had read the book... because it is a great big book, just like Keto Clarity, that goes into detail about ALL of these test results.

 

I've been looking into it for you.  

 

A quote from the small LDL-P section:

 

"Simply put:  To minimize or prevent damage to your arterial walls, you want as few small, dense LDL particles as possible.  And the best way to achieve that is by consumer fewer carbohydrates, eating more saturated fats and cholesterol in your diet, exercising, and losing weight.  Sound familiar?"

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