No tangible differences

[creativenikki]

@Loricious

WW has some good points, but IMO, they still have a long way to go.  The fact is they penalize sugar (good), yet promote artificial sweeteners in pretty much all of their products (bad).  The also penalize saturated fat too much, IMO.  I had a thought the other day... wouldn't it be amazing if WW  made it easier to eat fresh foods?  What if, instead of selling processed bars and shake mixes, they offered a meal service that used fresh foods/vegetables and helped members cook them in new, tasty ways?  Wouldn't that be something?  All of their foods are about convenience, but they sacrifice fresh ingredients for processed ones, which is a shame.  WW is also still stuck in the "healthy whole grains" mindset, which I just don't agree with anymore based on my n=1 experiments.  

 

The camaraderie of the meetings is a big plus, IMO.  I just wish there was a way to follow Whole 30 and WW, but I know that there isn't.  Actually, I wish I had a Whole 30 group that was weight-focused I could attend.  I need and want to lose weight and I feel like I'm doing what I should be doing.  Yet, no results.  It's very disappointing and frustrating.  No one in real life understands what I am feeling at all.  I will play out my remaining days of this Whole 30, and probably will keep many of the rules up after.  But if I don't lose some weight soon I don't know where to turn next.   I do not want to track my food for life, which is where WW doesn't really work for me.  

[Loricious]

I had a whole thing written about WW and everything, essentially defending it...  But that would be belaboring something that you've already seemed to decide: WW is not for you.  That's fine.  

If you are truly looking into weight loss teamed with a clean eating focus?  This isn't the program for you.  It simply isn't.  You need to look elsewhere.  Neanderthin?  The "Clean Eating" options?  Portion control?  I'm not sure what to tell you, but Whole30 won't give you what you want.

[MeadowLily]

48 minutes ago, creativenikki said:

@Loricious

WW has some good points, but IMO, they still have a long way to go.  The fact is they penalize sugar (good), yet promote artificial sweeteners in pretty much all of their products (bad).  The also penalize saturated fat too much, IMO.  I had a thought the other day... wouldn't it be amazing if WW  made it easier to eat fresh foods?  What if, instead of selling processed bars and shake mixes, they offered a meal service that used fresh foods/vegetables and helped members cook them in new, tasty ways?  Wouldn't that be something?  All of their foods are about convenience, but they sacrifice fresh ingredients for processed ones, which is a shame.  WW is also still stuck in the "healthy whole grains" mindset, which I just don't agree with anymore based on my n=1 experiments.  

 

The camaraderie of the meetings is a big plus, IMO.  I just wish there was a way to follow Whole 30 and WW, but I know that there isn't.  Actually, I wish I had a Whole 30 group that was weight-focused I could attend.  I need and want to lose weight and I feel like I'm doing what I should be doing.  Yet, no results.  It's very disappointing and frustrating.  No one in real life understands what I am feeling at all.  I will play out my remaining days of this Whole 30, and probably will keep many of the rules up after.  But if I don't lose some weight soon I don't know where to turn next.   I do not want to track my food for life, which is where WW doesn't really work for me.  

This is a good discussion, CreativeNikki.  

I went to a meeting at the first of the year with my neighbor. She wanted me to drive her there due to major snowstorms. The same leader who's been there forever and and a day was at the helm. 

She was still talking about being a good girl and being a  bad girl. Assigning moral judgments to food and describing the relationship with food in childish terms.

Naughty and nice, good girl/bad girl.  Everything within my being was rattling loose. Houston, let me take the wheel.  And you know what I would've done.  I would have set them free like Henry of ET in the science room when he lets all of the frogs go free out of the jars.  Open the windows and set all of them free.  

Let Freedom Ring.  I'm finally free of the constraints of dieting and I'd rather count smiles than calories or points.  After food addiction recovery counseling, I am not the same person I used to be. 

You can find someone to help you out of the maze of dieting.  Sit down with them face-to-face.  The sky is not the limit with the resources out there to help us. Dieting is being cornered and fenced in. 

The people were very sweet and I know almost all of them.  I adore my elders no matter who they are.  They've been going for decades, getting on the scale and still struggling with their weight but I love the smithereens out of all of them. I have a heart for people like me. 

[MeadowLily]

Bing!  One more.

Local Whole 30 Chapters,  I can see it.  

Meetings and connection and support.  No scale.   You come in a broken dieter and leave a Whole Food Warrior.  

It works in reverse.  No one knows what their starting weight or measurements are. You keep coming, rubbing shoulders and bouncing concepts off of each others heads. 

One day, without any time limits, you come out of the other side of dieting.  Yes, there may be those side effects of weight loss that everyone enjoys and brand new clothes.

You have new friends and a tight bond. You arrange hiking trips over hill and dale. Pack your lunch, drink a booch and shoot the breeze with the Universe.  Oooo, I can see it.

[MeadowLily]

Bing!  Another one. You're really ringing my Liberty Bell today, CreativeNikki.

I believe it is a disconnect for the mind to focus on beginning weights and measurements. Its sets you up for the biggest disappointment if at the end of 30 days you don't have a 15 lbs weight loss.

The body is trying to heal and recover without time constraints and pressure and stress.

Don't let your left hand know what the right is doing.  Don't tell your mind anything. Getting on the scale literally scares the fat.  Google this forum, it's all right here.

Letting yourself always know what the beginning weight was/is keeps you tied right there. The mind wants to take you back to that.  Tell yourself nothing.  Absolutely nothing. That's what I did. 

I kept going until I reached my optimum setpoint and let my body do all of it on its own terms without tasking it. Putting more square pegs into round holes.

One day,  your body will get there. Arriving on time, intact.  I don't care what my beginning weight and measurements were. They can just eat my dust because I am looking towards the future.  The old weight can't hold me down any longer.

The weigh in's, scale hopping never changed anything for me. When I stopped that, my life began.  

 

[creativenikki]

@MeadowLily  I would seriously love it if there was a Whole 30 meeting similar to a weight watchers meeting, just without the scale obsession.  I get camaraderie from WW and I like that.  I also get to be around like minded people to some extent (we're all hoping to lose weight).  If everyone there was focused on a more paleo/whole foods diet, man, that would be so cool.  One thing WW is starting to get right is that they are more focused on the mental/spiritual aspects and less about exercising to get points so you can eat more.  Those are both steps in the right direction for their program, IMO.  So, those aspects of the program also help me now until I can find myself a local Whole 30 chapter.  

I definitely like the idea of a life free from dieting.  My problem is that, so far at least, I haven't been able to achieve the right balance on my own.  I'm constantly either gaining weight or losing weight.  I just cannot figure out how to get to a healthy weight and maintain it.  What did you do?  Did you read a certain book?  Follow a Whole 30 lifestyle for an extended period of time?  Inquiring minds want to know!  I did just start re-reading It Starts With Food and bought Food Freedom Forever, but I haven't finished it yet.  

[MeadowLily]

Here it is in a nutshell and not the Whole bushel.

I completed one and only one Whole 30.  I looked around for a maintenance plan and couldn't find one. So I cabbaged onto every post written by Tom Denham.  I read every Whole 9 and Whole 30 manifesto/article and comments that followed. There's some really good advice in those comments answered by the founders of the W9 and W30. 

I lassoed myself onto the W30 forum. I kept following those who knew the way and wouldn't lead me off of a cliff. Then I found an actual doctor. He's published, runs a big rehab outfit. No names or GPS coordinates. With his help and template, template, template I tooled along this road to recovery from food addiction.

I did everything in reverse.  No more before photos, beginning weights or measurements. 

I threw all of my before photos,  exercise equipment, dieting books and digital scale into the trash.   Dieting and Exercise are two mates that are married for life. They can't stand one another but they're going to stay married anyway because everyone else is sick of them and wouldn't have them anyway.

Now, I'm working on movement instead of exercise.  I am not reserving all of my movement for the gym or class or running on the dreadmill-around in circles like a gerbil. Counting steps and measuring miles.  That's all gone with the wind.

Changing the way I think about movement is working the same way in my brain. Without the dread of exercise and dieting,  I move all throughout the day.  I recommend doing everything in reverse while looking towards the future. 

The disconnect.  Telling yourself this is not a diet but making it back into a diet with measurements, scales, weighing, gym/exercise classes you really dread.   

 

[GoJo09]

Go along to the WW meetings and enjoy the camaraderie and just don't get on the scales. It's not the law. You won't be arrested if you don't weigh in.

Tell your trainer that you're not loving your sessions and make him/her come up with something that inspires you. And tell him/her that you don't want to be weighed,  you'd rather track your progress in terms of how many push ups you can do, or how far you can run without having to stop - something that works for you. And if you get grief, demand your money back - it's a service industry!

I just started Crossfit in December after months of trail running and yoga. I don't do any of these because I have to, I do it because I have a good time doing it - I'm never going to go out for a 4 hour run on my own, but running with my best friend was great. I'm not going to hang out at home doing 50 burpees, but when it's at the gym with good people and cool music and high fives? Yeah, that's actually kinda fun. (Side note, 50 burpees is never actually fun, but it can be kind of hilarious.)

Find what YOU want to do, not what other people tell you you should be doing.

Edit: sorry, I don't know if that is even remotely helpful!

[jmcbn]

12 hours ago, MeadowLily said:

Local Whole 30 Chapters,  I can see it

LOVE this idea and can see it really taking off - recipe swaps, exchanging tips & ideas, but fronted by a trained W30 ambassador, rather than some randomer like many of the FB (& other social media) groups out there.

Like the forums, but face to face.

[MeadowLily]

3 hours ago, jmcbn said:

LOVE this idea and can see it really taking off - recipe swaps, exchanging tips & ideas, but fronted by a trained W30 ambassador, rather than some randomer like many of the FB (& other social media) groups out there.

Like the forums, but face to face.

A Whole 30 Warrior.  I can see it. 

Dieting Detox.  That's my name.

[MeadowLily]

I lurve this thread. Can you tell.  

At the first meeting, there's a table in the back with ISWF.  They won't be overwhelmed with too much info at one time but their bangs will be blown back.

Clear the decks. Clean the slate. Dieting Detox takes the wheel.  

Friends, Romans, countrymen...Lend me your ears.

I come to bury dieting, not to praise it.

So let it be, let it be with dieting. 

That unnoble brute.

Dieting is ambitious

Filled with grievous faults

I come to speak at dieting's end

That Brute brought many captives home

Today we are going to set them free

 

 

[creativenikki]

9 hours ago, GoJo09 said:

Go along to the WW meetings and enjoy the camaraderie and just don't get on the scales. It's not the law. You won't be arrested if you don't weigh in.

Tell your trainer that you're not loving your sessions and make him/her come up with something that inspires you. And tell him/her that you don't want to be weighed,  you'd rather track your progress in terms of how many push ups you can do, or how far you can run without having to stop - something that works for you. And if you get grief, demand your money back - it's a service industry!

I just started Crossfit in December after months of trail running and yoga. I don't do any of these because I have to, I do it because I have a good time doing it - I'm never going to go out for a 4 hour run on my own, but running with my best friend was great. I'm not going to hang out at home doing 50 burpees, but when it's at the gym with good people and cool music and high fives? Yeah, that's actually kinda fun. (Side note, 50 burpees is never actually fun, but it can be kind of hilarious.)

Find what YOU want to do, not what other people tell you you should be doing.

Edit: sorry, I don't know if that is even remotely helpful!

I kept debating between the trainer I'm seeing and Crossfit.  There is a crossfit gym across the street from my shop, which would also have been convenient.  I ended up picking the trainer because I didn't think I could handle the intensity of crossfit (I am out of shape, after all).  Now I'm wishing I had gone the other way though.  I guess I'll just have to use up my sessions quickly and then switch or something.  

I hope my trainer can come up with a way to motivate me... right now I hate going.  

[MeadowLily]

14 minutes ago, creativenikki said:

I hope my trainer can come up with a way to motivate me... right now I hate going.  

Ooo, dear Nikki. Normally, you can't get a refund.  More gym/trainer membership revenue streams are made in January than any other month. I've thrown so many of them away.  I believe if we hate it, we can't get the full benefit. 

[GoJo09]

Send your trainer an email or text and just let him/her know that you're not 100% happy with the direction. But you have to meet them halfway - have some suggestions or constructive criticism about what is and isn't working for you. If you're treating it like a torture session, that's exactly what it's going to feel like, regardless if it's a trainer, crossfit, yoga, whatever - that's an extra stress on top of the physical stress. 

Just keep plugging away at both food and fitness. If you treat your body well, it'll start responding in a sustainable way. Maybe not as quickly as we'd like, but hey, human bodies are complex machines! 

[creativenikki]

7 minutes ago, GoJo09 said:

Send your trainer an email or text and just let him/her know that you're not 100% happy with the direction. But you have to meet them halfway - have some suggestions or constructive criticism about what is and isn't working for you. If you're treating it like a torture session, that's exactly what it's going to feel like, regardless if it's a trainer, crossfit, yoga, whatever - that's an extra stress on top of the physical stress. 

Just keep plugging away at both food and fitness. If you treat your body well, it'll start responding in a sustainable way. Maybe not as quickly as we'd like, but hey, human bodies are complex machines! 

Yeah, I really have no choice but to work with this trainer now, so I'll do what I can.  Part of it is that I'm just still very new and not comfortable in the space or with the other people, etc.  I'm sure I'll get over it once I am more comfortable just being there in the first place.  I don't know how anyone else is, but I just hate being new somewhere.  I don't know where things are, I don't know if I'm taking too long in the shower/bathroom and others are waiting, etc.  All of that stuff gives me anxiety, I guess.  Plus, most of the people there working out are in really good shape (or appear to be, at least) and then there's me.  I hate that and it makes me feel like I don't fit in.  

[GoJo09]

9 hours ago, creativenikki said:

Yeah, I really have no choice but to work with this trainer now, so I'll do what I can.  Part of it is that I'm just still very new and not comfortable in the space or with the other people, etc.  I'm sure I'll get over it once I am more comfortable just being there in the first place.  I don't know how anyone else is, but I just hate being new somewhere.  I don't know where things are, I don't know if I'm taking too long in the shower/bathroom and others are waiting, etc.  All of that stuff gives me anxiety, I guess.  Plus, most of the people there working out are in really good shape (or appear to be, at least) and then there's me.  I hate that and it makes me feel like I don't fit in.  

Totally get you. You just need to remember that no one is paying any attention to you, they're focussed on themselves. And if they do notice you, they'll just think "good for her" and move on. Real life isn't a high school movie - the popular kids aren't going to gang up on you and get you kicked out for taking too long in the shower! The worst that will happen is someone will ask you to hurry up (and that's really unlikely!).

I know you said that meditation wouldn't work for you (I'm not sure if it was here or another thread), but I really think you should give it a go - it just helps you calm some of the anxiety and stress of life. Headspace is a great app that starts off with free 10 min sessions - hardly a huge commitment! Although once again, it's one of those things that takes time for the effects to become apparent. Why is everything that's good for you so slow to work?!

And by now you're hopefully feeling some of those Whole 30 NSV mood effects too - I always feel a bit calmer and happier after a couple of weeks eating this way (especially cutting out sugar - major anxiety trigger there), and that will start to make other things less of a stress too.

[ldrolling]

I'm late to the conversation, but it struck a chord with me so I wanted to share. I've done WW and Spark and counted the calories and tried working out and... I always ended up getting frustrated and quitting, then would beat myself up, go through the shame and guilt, then just keep doing what I was doing. I'm obese too and have struggled with my weight since I was in high school. I'm days away from finishing my first Whole 30 and I have no idea how much weight I've lost. Some things fit a bit looser, but not a ton. I have learned a lot though!

My big recommendation? If you haven't already read them, read It Starts With Food and Food Freedom Forever. I read ISWF days before starting and it was eye opening to me to learn how my stressed, taxed body was using food to placate itself and why I couldn't get a sense of control over what I was eating. Then after my husband and I started W30 I started reading Food Freedom Forever. Also incredibly helpful. 

While I'm curious about the scale, I don't think it'll have gone down by leaps and bounds, and I'm okay with that. What I've gained from this month is a much deeper awareness of my eating habits, I've gained a love of cooking again that was stagnant for a long time, and my body is self regulating when it's full. That has been a major accomplishment for me and something that I'm so excited about. I don't feel the need to take more just because something tastes good. I can say no. 

Something that no one has mentioned yet that might be affecting your weight loss, or lack of it, is that you're working out and strength training. That builds muscle, and muscle weighs more than fat. You might actually be burning body fat, but bulking up your muscle. My question then would be have you noticed other things about your mood, cravings, brain fog going away? I've also realized that I'm not drinking nearly enough water consistently. There have been a few days where I was really doing well, and there was a noticeable change in my body, but then I stopped because I was sick and it feels like I've bloated up a bit again. The recommendation for how much we should be drinking daily is half an ounce per pound of body weight. 

The other thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned, is that for some people 30 days isn't long enough for your body to start really responding to things, and some people need to do a Whole 60 or 90 or... If you haven't noticed any major changes and are still under a lot of stress it may just take longer for your body to adjust and start really benefitting from the nutrition it's getting. I would say give it longer and try to focus on some of the other aspects of it like being mindful of how your body feels after a good meal vs. how it felt before, how you cope with stress, how alert you're feeling at work, if you have a shift in energy, what you're thinking about as you eat and prepare meals, etc. For those of us that have a lot of weight to lose, it feels SO overwhelming to look at the big picture, but I've been learning the reason that none of the other programs worked for me was because they weren't addressing the root issues, and now I'm addressing those. If I continue to eat well, work in exercise/movement that I enjoy and establish good eating habits, the weight will come off as a natural side affect of those things, as well as the result of better sleep, stress reduction and an overall boost to my self confidence. It's a process, so hang in there!

[MonicaJ]

Came to this thread because I too saw no tangible differences on my last Whole30. So I'm currently trying a 90-day AIP, hoping that a longer diet + more restrictions = noticeable changes. It's day 33 and little to no progress, but I guess that's why I'm doing it for 60 more days!

Weirdly, I just saw something about the 5:2 fasting diet and looked it up right before reading Nikki's posts here. It's apparently great for weight loss! You drastically reduce your caloric intake for 2 non-consecutive days a week and then eat normally the other 5.

I also just found this article: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/12-essential-tips-for-primal-women/ It ironically recommends against fasting for most women, haha. But there are a number of women in the comments who have had great success with fasting and who cite Dr. Jason Fung as someone worth looking into. And the article itself is very encouraging (especially #3 and #4!), and the tips seem like solid guideposts for moving forward when things aren't currently working.

[jmcbn]

On 2/5/2017 at 1:59 AM, MonicaJ said:

You drastically reduce your caloric intake for 2 non-consecutive days a week and then eat normally the other 5.

Eat better, not less.

I'm with Mark here - fasting can have all kinds of hormonal impacts on women, and like a ketogenic diet I don't think there's enough research into the long term health implications for women.

If you'd like us to take a look at your food intake to see if there are any tweaks that you could make going forward we'd be happy to take a look. Bear in mind that this is not a weight loss diet, and if weight loss has been your focus it's likely you've been under-eating, even if it's been a sub-conscious thing. Focusing on weight loss is a stressor. Under-eating is also a stressor and causes the body to slow down the metabolism in a bid to burn less fuel, because you're providing less fuel... Raised cortisol levels can be responsible for weight gain. So under-eating is counter productive.

[MeadowLily]

Can you fast forever or keto forever without diminishing returns.  What kind of health and digestive system do you have at the end of 10 years with 80% fat, 15% protein, and 5% vege carb aka frozen spinach tennis ball.  What would your hair and teeth look like and internal organs.  

There are all kinds of food hacks.  Some are literally living on potatoes and packaged potato starch. There are egg hacks and olive oil hacks. Coffee hacks.  Fast for 2 days and stylin', whilen,  livin' it up in the city for 5 days,  fasting for 5 days and 2 days full of cheat meals.  

Food hacks dig a much deeper hole. One that might take years to crawl back out of. Tanked thyroids and even creating an irritable bowel syndrome from living on 80% fat. 

[nikki1973nikki]

 "  If I'm not going to lose weight on Whole 30, what should I do?  I read so many stories about people losing weight on paleo or whole 30 type diets.  I need to lose weight.  What should I do?  Health is important, which is why I'm not eating the chemical food compounds that weight watchers pushes, but I honestly just don't know what to do.   "

I am doing Whole 30 to prep for a cut. Basically, my diet has gotten out of hand over the past 12 months in terms of food quality. I'm viewing Whole 30 as a reset switch on my tastebuds, a refresher in cooking, and a chance to ferret out what bloats me. (I bloat. I've lost 8lbs on my first week of Whole 30, which yes, is nice, but also a little disturbing, because it's not fat or muscle, it's water I was retaining because something wasn't right in my diet, big time). 

After 30 Days, my plan is to reintroduce a few key foods and see how it goes (not sugar though....), make sure they weren't the culprit, THEN take my Whole 30 foods (plus a few more that I know I can tolerate) and apply them to a carb cycling template that I've used in the past. There I can control calories/macros and lose the fat and the Whole 30 food choices will help with my bloat issues, energy issues and cravings. 

So I'd finish your Whole 30 as written, forget about weightloss for now. When you are done find a template for weightloss. I'm not sure weight watchers is the best choice if you are strenuously working out- most trainers probably want you eating more protein than is called for (I am around your size and eat about 120 grams of protein a day).

The thing is, if you go to lose weight and have a food sensitivity or fight cravings and don't know why, you are going to fight a losing battle to keep your calories low enough OR you'll get discouraged because of bloat. So it's very worth while to go thru Whole 30 and really pay attention. This is my 3rd Whole 30, and for the most part I know my answer- sugar is NOT my friend. At all. I am reconfirming that and adjusting to life without sugar BEFORE I start having to adjust with life on fewer calories as well.

[nikki1973nikki]

Also... if you aren't willing to track for fat loss, and don't have success on Whole 30, it can be really hard. You might look into having a trainer write you a meal plan, but again, most just give you macros to hit and a list of clean foods. 

I have a friend who does Crossfit, and he won a month of paleo meal service- they basically deliver 3 meals a day of macro/calorie controlled clean foods. He has lost weight- so a specialized meal service might work. It's pricey.... but they do the tracking work. You just eat.