Please Help-too much fruit (and still hungry)

[Jewels_V]

I am on Day 10 and although I have not had any non-compliant foods, and I am following the meal templates for portion sizes, I still think about food ALL the time.  I just want to eat all the time.  I am trying really hard to do 3 meals and the pre/post workouts snacks but I just am not getting it.  I haven't noticed any changes with behavior or cravings.  I feel like I am missing out on life because I just think about food.  I really miss fruit.  I have been having 2 servings  a day and if I had to guess, pre Whole30 It was probably like 6-8 or more servings of fruit a day.  I was already gluten and dairy free so fruit was my biggest sugar source.  Its just so tasty!  Last night I fell asleep on my sofa and woke up around midnite.  I raided my fridge for grapes and blueberries and ate MANY handfuls of both.  Then I went upstairs and went to bed.  I still have zero energy and feel like a zombie all the time.  Does the fruit binge last night mean I have to restart?  I am just really struggling. I want so badly to discover the cause of my chronic sinus issues and create a healthy, non-obssessive relationship with food but it seems to be getting even worse.   The further in get in Whole30, the more I want fruit (in large amounts, not a measely 1-2 servings) and the more I think about food 24-7.   I still continue to feel hungry most of the time.  (I don't eat fish, so replacing that with plain chicken and broccoli still sounds like something I would want to eat and I have been seen picking at leftover meats in the refridgerator.  After a full, healthy dinner the other day I went to freeze my Whole30 chili and wound up eating a serving of that while it was still cold).  

[SugarcubeOD]

Okay, so first, no you do not need to start over.  Second, without knowing anything of what you've been eating, I can almost certainly guess that your obsession with food and the fruit cravings are probably because you're not eating enough... especially if you're also feeling hungry most of the time... this way of eating, done right, should not leave you hungry at all.

Please if you would like some advice, list out specifically what you've been eating including portion sizes, specific veggies, protein, fat, fruits, snacks, pre and post workout, water intake and anything else you feel might be pertinent.

[Jewels_V]

Thanks @sugarcubeOD I really appreciate you taking the time to help me!  

Here is a typical weekday: 

7:30AM: wake up, take my thyroid meds, get my girls ready and dropped off at school.

8:30AM: 30-40 mins cardio workout.

9:30AM: start work.

11:00AM Eat breakfast (I know its late but I am not that hungry and I have a busy morning).  Breakfast has been mostly a large amount of egg whites and additional protein, usually chicken, bc I don't eat yolks, scrambled with a large amount of spinach, peppers, onions and mushrooms and topped with red salsa or tomatillo avocado salsa (its divine but I don't count it as fat bc there is not much at all) I cook with olive oil and then usually add a small handful of nuts.  Today I had 1/2 an avocado.  I also eat a serving of fruit (handful of blueberries or a banana).  I made the Tunisian Eggs in the W30 cookbook last week and doubled the recipe so sometimes I have a large helping of that instead. 

1PM: I am already feeling hungry again so I grab a handful of olives or some nuts, and a small piece of precooked chicken.  Maybe a few (10 or less) blueberries.  Doesn't do much to take the edge off hunger but it tastes good.  Depending on how long or whether I got my cardio in in the AM (sometimes I have morning appts and I cannot) I may do a moderate 30-45 mins cardio session. 

3 or 4PM: Lunch, usually a W30 recipe.  For example, Italian beef roast with a potato, some carrots and onions and 1/2 can of green beans to up the volume.  I eat about 1-1.5 palm sizes of beef.   Don't feel completely satisfied but I ate full plate of food so I stop.  

6:30PM: Preworkout snack of chicken (1/2 to 1 palm) and handful of nuts.

7PM: One hour Pure Barre strength/stretching workout

9:30PM: Eat dinner, typically W30 recipe leftovers, (Italian beef roast/veg mentioned above, beef and sweet potato chili, or roast chicken on marinara with riced cauliflower and broccoli).  Also include a medium sized salad with TessaMae's complaint dressing or balsamic vinegar.  Maybe another serving of fruit. 

11:30PM : Bedtime

I drink a lot of herbal decaf tea, a little bit of black or green tea, water, and LaCroix through out the day, at least 70-100 oz probably.  I know it seems like my meals are late, but I figure that if one at dinner at 7PM, went to bed at 10PM and then woke up and at at 7AM, that's 12 hours between dinner and breakfast, which is pretty close to what I am getting but my day is just pushed back a bit.  With full time work and 2 year old twins and a commitment to getting my workout in, especially Pure Barre bc I enjoy it, I try best to work with the time I have.  

I feel like no matter what, I am never satisified or if I am, its for a very short period of time.  I was very fruit and veggie heavy, gf and dairy free before I started W30, but my protein usually came from organic vegan protein bars or eggs, not much meat (maybe once or twice a week).  I didn't use much fat before at all (conditioned to be fat-phobic lol).   The hunger feels like its coming from my gut, not just a craving that passes because its always on my mind.   Are my hormones just so out of whack that my brain is convincing my stomach its empty?  So sorry for the long post, I am trying to be as specific as I can so you can maybe see where I am going wrong.  I came to Whole30 after losing weight and reaching my goal on Weight Watchers.  I don't want to be a slave to the "track every bite and eat whatever you want whenever you want if its zero points" mentality.  I want FOOD FREEDOM!   Thank you thank you thank you for whatever advice you can give.  

[RandiW]

Not a mod, but in all honesty it looks like your sugar dragon is fruit based. I was sorta shocked when I saw you were eating 6-8 servings of fruit a day - that's a lot of sugar! Waking up in the middle of the night and eating fruit - sounds like someone else's version of waking up and eating ice cream to me.  If you really really want food freedom, you might avoid fruit during the rest of your W30. Of course you're tired and irritable if your blood sugar is up and down all day with the fruit. If you're not feeling full enough between meals then you probably need more food, and definitely more fat. The meal template is a minimum and some people need more. 

Also, looks like you're doing a fair bit of working out and there's no Pre and Post workout meals in there.. that could be a big source of not feeling satisfied. looks like you could use an egg or nuts before working out and then add a potato to protein after working out, or at the very least with M1. 

The big difference I noticed doing a W30 (of many) is that hunger feels very different. I don't feel hungry anymore - not the way I did before. I don't feel the need to eat anything specific, but when it's time to eat I feel like I need nourishment. As I get close to meal time I feel a little more tired, ready to eat - but not the hungry feeling I used to get. And I don't mean cravings - I mean I used to feel hungry and now I just mostly feel ready to eat. It's hard to qualify but it's really different. I can tell when I've gone off base with eating when I start to get that hungry feeling. I know for me it means I've eaten sugar recently or too much fruit. Sounds like you really need to be eating more food (and more fat) and maybe less fruit. 

Just my two cents.

[ladyshanny]

In my opinion your constant hunger is due to undereating fat and protein and misbalanced hormones.

Not feeling hungry in the morning for almost 4 hours after waking is a perfect warning sign that your hormones are misbalanced. This is going to set you up to chase your hunger/meal times for the rest of the day. I really, really encourage you to get a template meal in within 1 hour of waking. Maybe you get up 30 minutes earlier?

Why don't you eat the egg yolks? In your upcoming breakfasts I would also encourage you to find a denser and more balanced source of fat (not nuts). Homemade mayo, half an avocado etc. And use the entire eggs. As many as you can hold in your hands without dropping. For most people that is at least 3-4. The veggie combo you have at your breakfast is probably also on the light side. Spinach is nothing when cooked down and most people don't count onions as a veggie. We recommend 2-3 cups of cooked vegetable plus your protein, plus your fat. 

Breakfast is your foundation, some time spent working on timing and composition here will do you well, I think.

I also see that you are backloading your day with food but your wake and sleep times are pretty average. So, around 1pm when you're normally having a snack, have an actual lunch.  The 3pm lunch you indicate doesn't seem to include fat. Move this meal to 1pm and, again, include a denser fat source. Homemade mayo, ghee, olive oil etc. 

Every workout you are doing where you are depleting your body, you should be at the least, having a post workout snack. Lean protein and a starchy vegetable. Pre workout is probably less important, especially for your mid day workout but go based on how you feel. Workout food, both pre and post, is in addition to your other regular meals.

As a final assist to help rebalance your hormones, try to stop eating well before bedtime. Eating at 9 at night isn't great for your body if you are on a regular circadian rhythm. 

As a former "weight watcher" who lost a great deal of weight, when I came to paleo/Whole30, it took a while for my body to figure itself out and rebalance my hormones. Feeling extremely cold, sleeping irregularly, missing or weird periods and hunger signals were all messed up. WW is, whether we like to hear it or not, a calorie restriction diet. It's one of the better ones out there but here in real-foods-ville it's different because we're not using any processed foods or grain products or sugar/sugar subs at all. Might take a while to get your body on the same page.

 

[Jewels_V]

@RandiW  :  Thanks for your comments!  To be honest, preW30, it was very common for me to snack on fruit and often times, breakfast and at least 1-2 snacks were fruit and organic vegan protein bars (I quit dairy so no whey protein bars, which is what I used to eat, and I think those were "dirty" anyway-former Quest bar addict).  So before summer,  I could easily eat a couple bananas and 3 apples in a day.  Now that its summer, I get VERY excited about berries, grapes, watermelon (ripe watermelon with salt-I am convinced there is nothing better) and other fresh fruits.  I was (and still am) capable of eating an entire jumbo watermelon in 3 days by myself. I love it that much.   I shouldn't have woken up and eaten all that though.  It was not mindful. Its part of the WW mentality that its fruit, so its "free" or "zero points" so that makes it alright.   I have decided that I love fruit too much to give it up, but I will eat it with meals (I have little one cup serving bowls) so I will make sure that I eat only what fits in those nice little bowls and not more than 3x a day.  Goal would be two, but it is summer.  I see it being much easier to cut out or cut back on fruit in winter but I soooo look forward to fruit in summer.  

As far as preworkout, for my evening barre class, I have been having a small piece of chicken and a handful of nuts before I go, so I do get that snack in.  Thanks for pointing out how you feel about hunger now though-I am going to try and be more mindful and see if I can get to that kind of shift and intuitiveness!  

@ladyshanny: Maybe I'll make those frittata in muffin pan things and go for that first thing?  I don't eat egg yolks because I am a weirdo-I am really turned off by the smell and the taste of them.  Have been since I was a kid.  If they are hard boiled, the texture also factors in (like I said, weirdo lol).  But I could add diced chicken to those and make them grab and go (freeze them).  That would be better then nothing, right?  

I am kind of confused with fats.  I make the recipes in the W30 cookbook, and so far none have had that "make it a meal" sideline.  They were basically slow cooker or one pot meals.  There is oil or cooking fat in there, so does that count as my fat?  I wasn't really adding any more because there weren't any instructions to add any more fat and I thought that was supposed to be my whole meal.  How often can I have nuts?  I really like them and can be mindful with portions (a handful) and I buy raw or dry roasted/salted so there aren't any additives, but I don't want to go overboard.   

If I aim for 3 servings of fruit (about a cup) is that reasonable?  I think I read in the book that in summer you can go up to 4 or 5.  

Thanks again for your input, this helps soooooooooooo much!  You guys rock!!!! 

[ladyshanny]

Yes, add some other protein to your eggs then if you aren't going to have the whole egg. 

Nuts are an inferior fat source, they don't have a great balance of fatty acids and they can be digestively distressing. Also very easy to over eat. Nut recommendations are a closed handful (ie, your fingers close over top, no open palm) every other day. That's not a lot.

A fruit serving is a fist sized amount. Is that a cup for you? I'm not sure of your specific fist size.  And yes, obviously we are inclined to eat more fruits in the summer months which is totally fine. However.........consider your personal context. Knowing that you love it and don't want to cut it out, but ALSO knowing that you have a real attachment to it such that it could be replacing other more important components of your meals means that you might want to reconsider whether you are prioritizing it. You shouldn't be eating any fruit until you've had the protein, fat and 2-3 cups (cooked volume) of vegetables. Often people who REALLY love fruit can do well by adding it to things. Like making a pineapple chicken dish or putting grapes in chicken salad or apples on a leafy salad. Incorporating the fruits like a condiment might be beneficial to you. (eg. I had an arugula salad with scrambled eggs on top and then topped with diced mango this morning)

Given that you are getting further into W30 and craving that quick hit of sugary fruit more and more, you would do best to up the volume of your meals, edit the meal timing as discussed and see how you do. 

[Jewels_V]

Thanks so much @ladyshanny!  This is incredibly helpful! Just a couple of questions: are seeds (like roasted pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds etc) to be treated as an every other day fat as well? 

And when following the W30 cookbooks, does the oil in the recipe count as my fat for the meal?

 

[SugarcubeOD]

19 minutes ago, Jewels_V said:

Thanks so much @ladyshanny!  This is incredibly helpful! Just a couple of questions: are seeds (like roasted pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds etc) to be treated as an every other day fat as well? 

And when following the W30 cookbooks, does the oil in the recipe count as my fat for the meal?

 

Yes, seeds and nuts are in the same boat so it's nuts/seeds every other day at most.  

No, generally we'd still advise you to add fat to your meal... you can test it and see how you do without, depending on if the meal is something like a curry that has a lot of fat in it... you want to aim for 4-5 hours between meals so if you can honestly get there without adding fat, then okay but most people should just add fat.

[Jewels_V]

Thanks @SugarcubeOD you have all been so helpful!  Day is day 12 already, and I think that I am starting to see some of the differences.   They are subtle, but they are there.  I cannot wait to see what the next few days bring.   

Tiger blood, I'm comin' for ya! 

PS-These W30 Cookbook recipes are awesome.  And from someone who is using this plan as a reason to learn how to cook, my husband is abs thrilled.  He LOVED the Shakshuka I made the other day.   I've done the Moroccan Spiced Beef with Cauliflower Rice, the roasted chicken, the Chili....and I can actually make them.  Good!   They are not over-complicated and the directions are easy to follow.  Hallelujah! 

[linguistenator]

Why are you doing so much cardio? If you're working out three times a day, there's no way your hormones are going to be balanced no matter what you do with your food. The constant, uncontrollable hunger and urges to eat sugary food are your body's way of letting you know that your hormones are way out of whack.  

Maybe back off the workouts and let your body reset your hormones. Working out too much can send your energy, hunger, and cravings well out of whack. You probably need to dial it back a little to a point where your body doesn't feel the need to eat all the fruit in sight.

If you think you're struggling with exercise addiction at all, I strongly encourage you to talk to a professional. I did, and it has saved me countless hours of gym time and anxious worrying (and no, I didn't balloon up to a billion pounds by backing off the excessive cardio).

[Jewels_V]

@linguistenator--I generally work out twice a day because that's just the way my schedule lets me fit it in.  Cardio is typically before work or on my lunch break, and then Pure Barre 5 days a week.  Not sure if you are familiar with PB-its 55 mins of muscle shaking, burning awesomeness but it does NOT elevate my heart rate much.  I wear a Garmin, and my resting hr is usually about 46.  This will get it up to 80, maybe 100 for a short time.  Its really body-weight based stretching and strength.  I do the cardio on my own, just because I have been doing it for so long.  I guess I feel like I need it.  I work from home at a desk job and without the cardio, I might not even get 5K steps on my Garmin.  Sometimes I don't even hit 10K after a day of 45 mins cardio and an hour of Pure Barre!  I read that 10K steps or at least an hour a day of moderate activity is needed to maintain weight, and I have been yo-yoing for a while, finally lost pretty much what needed to come off prior to my W30.   I have been thinking about scaling back with cardio but I am worried about it with my inactive job.  It would be much harder for me to find time to take leisurely walks then a 30 min run for example.  BTW-I have become MUCH more in control of my fruit cravings as of late.  I still want food in general, but I am happy eating my W30 meals with a side of fruit once or twice a day.  I think I can live with that.  I haven't had watermelon though-frankly, I am a little scared of it.  Its like my favorite thing ever so I am saving it for a bit.  I also decided to stretch my W30 into W45, since I am trying to clear up persistent sinus issues and I have autoimmune nasties circulating about as well (namely Hashimoto's and a couple other positive auto-immune markers).

Since you said you spoke to someone about over-exercising, am I off-base on what is needed to maintain weight from what you have been told? 

Thanks! 

[RandiW]

@Jewels_V - sounds like you're doing great! Quick side note, but definitely try the posole from the W30 cookbook, it's my favorite recipe in there and so easy!!

[RandiW]

Just now, RandiW said:

@Jewels_V - sounds like you're doing great! Quick side note, but definitely try the posole from the W30 cookbook, it's my favorite recipe in there and so easy!!

Unless you don't eat pork - then try it with chicken. so good.

[Anna K]

On 6/29/2017 at 2:13 PM, Jewels_V said:

I have decided that I love fruit too much to give it up, but I will eat it with meals (I have little one cup serving bowls) so I will make sure that I eat only what fits in those nice little bowls and not more than 3x a day.  Goal would be two, but it is summer.  I see it being much easier to cut out or cut back on fruit in winter but I soooo look forward to fruit in summer.

I just want to add a little to this conversation. In Food Freedom Forever Melissa says that if when considering your food choices there is any one thing you think "I absolutely cannot live without that", then you should DEFINITELY eliminate it for your program.  In my opinion and experience it's going to be very difficult for you to conquer serious sugar dependence while still eating the food you are dependent on, even in moderation.  "Moderation" is a slippery slope.  It's only 30 days.  Just my two cents.