Are these signs I am still detoxing on Whole30


ricks

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I have followed the Whole30 program for almost 6 weeks. I started it because I was a carb and sugar monster. Typical daily carb intake was about 400 grams coming from pasta, bread, rice, sugar post-workout drinks, and sugar. I was also hungry ALL the time and easily ate 4-6 times a day.

I believe I have a fast metabolism as my RMR (resting metabolic rate) was tested several years ago when I was 48 and it was 3,000 calories a day. Seeing I work 60-80 hours a week in manual labor (construction trades) and work out several times a week, my trainer thought I was easily burning about 5,000 calories a day. My weight has never been a problem as I am 6'5" and weigh about 190 even when eating bad food (yea I know I was lucky) :)

To my amazement, the sugar addiction left on the evening of day one and I had not had anything with sugar since then...no cravings either. I also do not miss ANY of the other carbs. I do think I need to eat more food in general and especially more dense veggie carbs as I feel a bit tired still at times especially after meals that don't have many carbs.

I have had a coating on my tongue since day 2 or 3 which is still there. My urine looked and smelled very different right from the beginning and still does. The weirdest thing is that my wife and I temporarily live in different states and this weekend was the first time she has seen me since I started. She told me my body smells different and it is not a good smell :o

My questions are these:

1) I had heard / read that the Whole30 program has a detoxing element to it and these symptoms remind me of when I did weeklong veggie juice only fasts years ago when I was trying to detox. Should I just stay on the Whole30 until these go away as they mean I am still cleaning? I don't feel any desire for the old bad food so I don't really feel like introducing things at this time as I don't really miss or crave them.

2) My joints actually feel worse at times since I started. I thought they would feel better after giving up the sugar, yet i wonder if the pain has anything to do with all the red meat I am now eating as in the past I only ate chicken, turkey, and fish. In the past, my joints always seemed to feel the best when I didn't eat meat at all.

Any and all suggestions / feedback is welcomed.

Thanks,

Rick

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Wow ricks, that sounds tough. I notice bad smell/breath come and go.. I think it is worse when I have too much fat or not enough carbs. I also notice the urine smell sometimes... But I think that is related to me using stronger spices for flavoring. Or maybe too much meat. Sometimes I adjust this by replacing with eggs more often. I have fixed my skin problems and aches through the extra saturated fat. Ghee in particular is supposed to provide a major building block for our natural anti inflammatory production, do you have it?

If the aches are from too much meat/acidity then you need to blance this with more leafy green veggies. Also lemon juice in water before meals is supposed to help this.....

These are just some thoughts, not a medical opinion of course. Good luck!

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The adjustment/detox phase should be complete by now. If you and your urine are smelling off and your joints feel worse, I worry that something is wrong in your diet. It would be useful to study a food log that covers a few days of your meals to get a good idea of what you are eating. You might need more of some things and less of others.

You didn't mention the color of your urine, but I am wondering if you are drinking enough water. I would expect well-diluted urine to have little smell. Personally, I am amazed at how much water I have to drink to keep my urine relatively clear and to keep from having foot cramps... right at 10 big glasses per day separate from what I drink while training. I've only discovered the foot cramps/water connection recently. I tend not to cramp when I am drinking a lot of water, but get fierce foot cramps in some positions when I fail to drink enough.

I am curious about your experience of your joints feeling best when you did not eat meat. I don't have any ideas about why red meat might be a problem, but you might want to cut red meat for a week and see if your joints feel better. The Whole30 encourages eating a variety of proteins, but I suppose you could limit red meat if it provokes problems for you.

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I have been researching ketosis recently, and your symptoms (the coating on your tongue and foul-smelling urine) match what many people experience when their bodies enter ketosis. Maybe Tom or another mod could weigh in on what that would mean with regard to your Whole30. Something to consider...

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What Momto3 said is exactly what I was going to mention. It sounds like ketosis. How many starchy carbohydrates are you eating? With your manual labor, I think you really need to eat be eating at least a full sweet potato (or the equivalent) with each meal.

Now that you're out of your W30, white potatoes may be a good inclusion to up your starch intake, but that should be in addition to the veggies you're currently eating, not instead of.

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Thanks to everyone for their support and suggestions. I had to look up "ketosis" because I didn't really know its meaning. It seems the meaning is...a state where the body is burning fat for energy and generating high levels of ketons. The symptoms can be fruity breath and dark urine and this condition can lead to ketoacidosis. Ketoacidosis is where there is a significant drop in insulin and rise in glucose levels which is dangerous and can possibly lead to a coma and death. That doesn't sound too healthy or exciting :o

I don't think I am at this point yet as my urine has been lighter (and more foamy) not darker and I don't think my wife called by breath "fruity" as both of these are possible symptoms of ketosis. They did say the blood in this condition is becoming more acidic and I wonder if this is "contributing" to my increased joint pain.

All this confuses me a bit as I thought the Whole9 book talked about the benefit of burning fat for fuel as a positive thing and something we want and now it seems I am doing that, yet, it is not so good :wacko: My guess is there needs to be some kind of a balance and given my body has been fueled with "bad" carbs forever, asking my body to burn mostly fat isn't working all that well either, etc, etc.

I did want to reply to those who left commentsl:

Juzbo - I think the need to add more carbs is a great suggestion. I haven't been eating a lot of leafy greens either so I need to look at that as well. I do add lemon to my water, yet don't drink much before the meal so I may start trying that too.

Tom - I figured the detox was over, yet, didn't know for sure. My urine has been a lighter color, strong smelling (ammonia like) and more foamy. My stool has also been lighter (more yellowish??) I have not been drinking enough water so I need to work on that too. Before the Whole30 program, I had very little red meat in 20 years (mostly hamburgers) and while my joint pain is very minor and doesn't exist all the time, my knees have always felt better with less meat (of any kind) and the the best on only raw food.

Momto3 - thanks for the suggestion as I think this is a possible factor with me right now

Renee - I try to have starchy veggies at all three meals as it tough to get enough carbs from regular veggies only. My starchy veggies are sweet potatoes (sp), squash, turnips, and beets, with the bulk being sp. I bake them in large quantities on a single day and re-heat through the week, I have cans of sp and squash in the pantry as emergency backups, and jars of baby food sp in my work lunch cooler as well. I don't think I eat 3 sp a day, yet I have been eating at least 2 or the combination of 2 total servings of sp and squash.

Fenderbender - I have thought of this idea, and, on most days, I am just not that hungry so I often get confused about whether I should eat again.

While I will wait to see what replies I may get from this added info, I am leaning towards reducing the protein, eliminating the red meat, and increase the starcy veggies (carbs) and water and possibly a 4th meal.

How does everyone feel about me adding in some traditional carbs (one at a time) to help my get some more carbs and if so which ones do you suggest?

What about adding in more fruit as well?

I don't desire sugar so I won't eat that, however, I am trying to see how this new meal planning will play out for the rest of my life and other life goals and needing 2 sweet potatoes or helpings of squash at each and every meal may not work real well long term. I am also getting ready to start training for a 500 mile unsupported mountain bike race next summer and I doubt that i can carry enough sweet potatoes for that race and small towns that I ride through probably won't support my current diet very well.

Finding protein won't be hard, yet finding enough "quality" carbs to fuel my body to endure18-20 hours of strenuous mountain bike riding that will for the most part not even be available to me is a bit scary if I'm a very strict meal plan. I know first things first and that is to deal with the current situation, yet I also know where I want to go to as well. I think I may have to find some "acceptable" B or C grade foods at certain times in my life and I am a bit concerned if I just surprise my body with them when I am really leaning on it.

Thanks again for all the help and support, and, as usual, any feedback and/or suggestions are welcomed.

Rick

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Flynn - I had to laugh at the "hot dog water" statement. When I asked my wife what I smelled like she hesitantly said.....mold and mildew. I guess neither smell will make it as a successful selling cologne for men - ha ha

Thanks,

Rick

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Hi ricks, ketosis and ketoacidosis are two separate and distinct things. One is an adaptation for dealing with times of food/carb scarcity. The other is a symptom/result of not being able to handle sugars (diabetics are at risk for ketoacidosis.)

Anyway, fruit's a good choice for carbs as well, it's just not a better choice than the starchy veggies

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Not under normal circumstances. It's really only if a) your pancreas stops working and can't secrete insulin and B) you eat a ton of carbs on top of that.

It's really only a cause and effect concern in diabetics.

Most non diseased folks will pop in and out of ketosis on a regular basis; it's just being metabolically flexible. Extended periods of ketosis are beneficial for lots of diseased populations; does this link help? http://m.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-ketosis-and-ketoacidosis.htm

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