losing weight FAST and in ketosis... worried

[morwen]

Hi everyone,

I'm on day 8 of my Whole30. There are many things that are really great about this program so far (not feeling hungry all day is awesome!) and things that are not so great (crippling cravings). But what I really want to talk about is being in ketosis.

So I know I'm in ketosis because I just had a urinalysis done (unrelated reason) and it was filled with ketones. I've got some biochemistry background and I know that ketosis is a starvation mechanism intended to help your brain stay energized when you aren't eating anything, but it also occurs when you aren't eating any carbs. So my liver is happily burning up my body fat which is why I'm losing weight - 5 lbs in 7 days, to be exact.

I guess I'm just worried because I don't know the health effects of being in ketosis and 5 lbs seems like way too much. It Starts with Food doesn't mention this phenomenon at all, which is disappointing because it's a major biochemical effect of cutting carbs out of your diet.

Can anyone help me with this?

Thank you very much!

[missmary]

why aren't you eating carbs? The whole30 is not designed to be ketogenic and does not restrict carbs, just carb sources. The meal template includes 1-2 palms of protein, 1-2 thumbs of fat and the rest of your plate filled with vegetables. As long as you are following the template, you should be fine. If you aren't, add more veggies and starchy ones in particular.

[Susan W]

Hoping a sciency moderator chimes in but I can tell you this...it's not mentioned in the book because this is not a food plan that cuts out carbs. What it cuts out are processed carbs. You are welcome to eat starchy veggies and some fruit especially if that is what you need. What are you eating and in what amounts?

[morwen]

Hi, thank you so much for your response. I should have said this - I eat RIDICULOUS amounts of vegetables. I've always been a veggie eater, but I've doubled what I used to eat. I suppose that is why I was surprised to be in ketosis. I don't know that I can realistically eat any more! I've paid attention to the palms of protein, thumbs of fat, surround by veggies bit.

A typical dinner would be: a piece of chicken, half a plate of broccoli with homemade mayo dipping sauce, and a salad with oil and vinegarette. I use half a head of lettuce for my salads. Lunches are leftover meat with a tupperware full of carrots, snap peas, bell peppers, guac and some fruit. I also feel like I stuff myself silly sometimes - I used to be a calorie restricter, and it just seems like way too much food!

Thank you again for your help. Much appreciated.

[Susan W]

Are you eating starchy veggies like sweet potatoes and butternut squash or mostly greens?

[morwen]

Susan - no starchy vegetables at all. Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of squash, and I'm pretty lukewarm about sweet potatoes. Maybe I can work on getting a few of those in my diet. Thank you for the point.

[Susan W]

Yes, I believe it will change your experience drastically. How about roasted mixed root veggies like turnips, parsnips, carrots. Then maybe throw in a roasted butternut squash for good measure. Ooo..and double fried plantains. You'll be right as rain.

[AmyS]

Yes, I believe it will change your experience drastically. How about roasted mixed root veggies like turnips, parsnips, carrots. Then maybe throw in a roasted butternut squash for good measure. Ooo..and double fried plantains. You'll be right as rain.

This. Eat carbs. Whole30 is not a low-carb eating plan.

[morwen]

Sorry all but I just wanted to clarify - I was definitely never trying to cut out carbs. I know that Whole30 is not supposed to be "low carb" in the same sense that a diet like Atkins is. But lets be real, Whole30 cuts out the vast majority of carbs out there, processed or not. I thought eating fruit and veggies would be enough, but I guess not

I'll do my best to add some starchy vegetables... that should do the trick. Maybe this is academic then, but... what if it doesn't work? Is it safe to be ketotic? Does anyone know?

Thanks again for the help everyone. I really, really appreciate it.

[Susan W]

I think we have given you some great advice. If you choose not to eat starchy vegetables, that is your choice. It sounds like you need them so I am a little confused about what sounds to me, like resistance. The starchy vegetables will take care of it. No question about that.

I would do some research on Atkins and/or other low carb diets to determine if it is something you want to pursue. This just is not a platform for low carb conversation because W30 is simply not that. Maybe check out Chris Kresser's site to see if he has any info on it. Maybe W9 site blogs about it. Or Marks Daily Apple.

A gentle question for you. Are you hoping to lose weight?

[Susan W]

One more thing. W30 absolutely does not "cut out the vast majority of carbs out there". Carbs that don't make you healthier...yes. Carbs that make you healthier as in veggies and some fruit...encouraged.

I really do wish you well on this fantastic journey.

[morwen]

Hi Susan, thanks for the many responses. I appreciate your willingness to have a conversation with me.

I think I am being misunderstood - I apologize. I love the whole Whole30 concept, and I don't believe in cutting out any particular nutrient, including and especially carbohydrates. However I have cut out an enormous amount of carbohydrate rich foods that I used to eat as a major part of my diet, including wheat, rice, quinoa, pasta, asian noodles, etc etc, so it feels like a low carb diet to me. I *know* that Whole30 is not a "low carb diet", but functionally I went from have the vast majority of my calories come from carbohydrate-rich food to the majority of my calories coming from protein and fat. I do see your point about veggies and fruit but I'm also aware I'm getting no where near the carbohydrates I used to get in my previous diet.

I do NOT want to pursue Atkins or any of that. One of the things I love about Whole30 is the emphasis on foods and not nutrients. I believe the whole Atkins theory is flawed. That's a discussion for another forum.

I suppose what you are interpreting as resistance from me comes from two places - 1) I really don't like squash, sweet potatoes, or plantains (sucks for me) and 2) I feel like I'm already doing a lot of what I'm supposed to be doing. If eating piles of veggies -- including a ton of carrots ... my poop is practically orange... sorry for the TMI -- and a good helping of fruit every day isn't enough, I just feel nervous that adding sweet potatoes (the only Whole30 compliant starch I can stomach) will be enough. After all, the proof is in the pudding -- I AM ketotic, and I do NOT want to be. It absolutely freaks me out ... another reason why I would never want to try Atkins, which is specifically designed to put the dieter into ketosis so they lose weight like crazy.

I'm doing Whole30 to improve my health, so naturally I am scared if it might be compromising it. That's why I keep hoping someone might shed some light on whether it really is as bad as I think it is to be in ketosis.

With respect to weight ... sure I need to lose a few pounds, but not so much so fast. It just doesn't seem right. My focus here is health.

Hope I clarified my position.

Thank you again.

[Susan W]

I don't know what else to say. You need to eat starchies. Not giving up on you..but just do it. Heck..I can think of much grosser things. I actually am fond of winter/starchy vegetables.

[Susan W]

One more thing..follow the program as written and you will do the opposite of compromising your health.

[whitjm5]

We're all adults here, right? Let's suck it up and eat what we know will heal us. In my case, that's broccoli and Brussels sprouts (which I hate). In your case, tubers. Barring that, you have two options left:

• Stay in ketosis
  
• Quit the Whole30
  

You've received sound advice, take it. :-)

[Kirsteen]

Just to add that I really wouldn't worry about losing 5lbs in your first week. A high grain diet typically causes people to retain water so cutting out the grains and processed carbs usually means people drop a lot of water weight at the beginning. I'm sure this will level out and eating a W30 is the healthiest wayy to go. good luck

[annabel]

Have you tried parsnips and rutabaga?

[Samphire]

Again like others I wouldn't worry about 5lb in 1 week. That's probably not fat, it's likely water and inflamation going down. I would be extremely surprised if you kept losing at that rate. It will probably slow down to 1/2 to 1lb a week if you are lucky!

I've played around with lowcarb dieting in the past and that first week is always a big loss followed by slow steady progress.

Also, I do not believe that ketosis is something to worry about. It has been confused in the past wtih ketoacidosis (which is not good, particularly if you are diabetic). But ketosis itself is just another way the body generates energy. From what i have read the body becomes more effecient at using ketones after time and so the don't show up as strongly in tests after a while but as far as I can tell from what i have read, it isn't dangerous.

One person who has done an experiement of living in ketosis for nearly a year is Jimmy Moore and you can read about his n=1 experiment at his blog. livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog

He is very pleased with the health benefits (he tracks a lot what is happening). Not recommending it as he probably has different health goals to you and he is eating about 85% of calories from fat diet to get into ketosis. but just goes to show it can be sustainable over a long period of time.

I know we're not supposed to replace veggies with fruit, but I'm sure a couple of slices of mango, pinapple or other high carb fruits would get you some carbs and put your mind at rest (although with a worse fructose load than starchy veg).

[MelliebuStacey]

and celeriac, and pumpkin, and parsnips???

[Avalanche]

What about bananas? I know they carry a decent amount of sugar, but they are also a source of starchy carbs.

I wonder if you had just a bit of starchy carbs at each meal (like a half serving) that would help. That way you don't need to eat a ton of something you don't like (which is counterproductive in the long run), but your body gets the message that starches are present. I usually fill up a small container with roasted sweet potato and butternut squash (3-4oz) and then split it between breakfast and lunch. Of course, I really enjoy both of those foods, so it's not a chore for me.

[EmilyB456]

I guess we just don't understand, exactly, what the problem is. You're in ketosis and don't want to be but want to continue with your Whole30. You can remedy that by eating more starchy carbs. It WILL knock you out of ketosis and will probably make you feel better. What do you have to lose by trying it? And there are a TON of options, most of which have already been mentioned. There are also so many ways to prepare them that surely you can find something that will work. How about stirring some pumpkin puree into a chili or a curry? You can't even taste that it's pumpkin...just gives it a nice creaminess.

To stay in ketosis, you have to maintain a carb intake MUCH lower than anybody on the Whole30 has ever recommended. It kind of sounds like you're mourning the loss of your grains and wanting a valid reason to return to eating them, which is a normal part of this process, but it is entirely possible to get all the carbs you need without them.

Best of luck to you!

[morwen]

Samphire and Kirsteen - thank you so much for your responses. Your comments have done a lot to allay my concerns. I will keep you posted on how I'm doing after a few weeks and see if my weight loss tails off. I admit I have a poor perspective because I have enough background in biochemistry to be worried (we were taught that ketosis is a "starvation response") but not enough perspective to really understand how bad or not so bad it is. Your comments helped. Thank you again.

As for everyone encouraging me to eat my starches... thank you! I think I have my work cut out for me in trying to figure out how to get those buggers into my diet. I never meant to imply that I was trying to get out of eating them! I admit I'm less than enthusiastic about it... Whole30 has already been hard, but the whole point is to change my diet to be healthier. I need to go back to my posts and figure out what I said that implied that I wasn't taking very sound advice (I admit, the whole "we're all adults here" comment stung a little bit. I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't taking a very proactive and serious approach to improving my health). I recognize that was my failing, though. I apologize.

I'm afraid I have to address this comment: "To stay in ketosis, you have to maintain a carb intake MUCH lower than anybody on the Whole30 has ever recommended". Part of my whole point is that I am calling this statement into question. Nobody mentions ketosis because it's not supposed to happen. I've been following the rules of Whole30 to the letter (okay, except the one about getting on the scale), including eating lots and lots of varied veggies and fruits, yet I am in ketosis. I recognize that most people probably don't get a urinalysis done during their first week, but I can't fathom that I am the only person that this has happened to. Although squashes etc are mentioned as a healthy food to eat, I can't find anywhere in ISWF that emphasizes the need for eating them to keep your carbohydrates at a baseline level. On the contrary, they almost seem to downplay them -- like they are fine to eat if you really want to eat them. Quote from page 161:

"Finally, there are vegetables that are both nutrient-dense and carbohydrate-dense. You don't have to be afraid of sweet potato, beets, butternut squash (etc) just because they contain carbohydrates. We assure you, no one has ever made herself diabetic by overeating beets or pumpkin. In fact, if you are healthy and active (insert: which I'm not -- I'm unhealthy and sedentary) you'll need to make a point of eating some of these carb-dense vegetables on a regular basis to support your activity levels".

This last bit is of course what you are all trying to say, and point taken -- I agree 100% -- but this paragraph didn't exactly leave me the sense of "holy crap, I better develop a taste for carb dense vegetables".

Therefore, I don't think I've deviated from the diet "as written" in that sense, since I simply didn't realize that such a thing would be so important. I'm sure other people who dislike starches and accordingly have not eaten them may have gone into ketosis with this diet - which begs the question, so what? What's the big deal? Is that unhealthy or is it just part of the process? That I think was the ultimate question I was trying to get across here. As some of the posters have said, maybe it's not a big deal -- which could explain why the authors didn't bother addressing it. Or maybe it is. Either way, I think it's a worthy conversation to have.

Thank you very much for your time.

[Renee Lee]

Hey everybody, can we simmer a little? The OP is concerned about the _safety_ of being in ketosis, which nobody's really addressed here. OP, I'm sorry nobody's come in to mitigate your concerns. I just saw this post!

Being in ketosis is not a problem, it's just not something that we're shooting for long term. Our bodies SHOULD be able to switch in and out of ketosis whenever we need to. It's a function of being metabolically flexible. Folks on the Standard American Diet are SO hopped up on carbs, that there's no reason for the body to step away from glycolysis (breaking down sugars for energy). This is one of the reasons why SAD-ers get mood swings and ravenous every couple of hours, because they run out of sugar to burn quickly and easily. They have lost the ability to tap into their fat stores for energy. This metabolic flexibility is also why paleo folks (and IFers) can go for hours without eating, because they have capacity to tap into other fuel sources. THIS IS GOOD.

Side note, there are a bunch of cells in your body that preferentially run on ketones, btw! Your heart is one of them!

Anyway, as for the excreting ketone things, right now you're body's just tapping into the fat stores and breaking it down into ketones, which is good. Eventually you won't be excreting them because your body will remember how to _use_ them. Most people on Atkins, or those that use the ketostix, get panicked because they stop turning purple or whatever, because your body is USING THEM, so then they drop their carbs even further, to keep that pretty purple reaffirmation of doing things "right"

Just keep eating and following the meal template. You're fine! Carrots are great, cabbage is great, have some bananas, etc. Don't stress about it too much

[ABW]

I think part of the "fun" of the whole30 is all the new foods I'm eating. And spaghetti squash is a big part of that. Have you tried squash lately? I first tried spaghetti squash when doing Atkins years ago - and I did NOT like it. But I tried it again recently and it's now the basis for at least a meal a week! It might be a good one to start with, doesn't seem very "squashy" and you can cover it with a compliant marinara sauce or use it in Paleo Pad Thai. Sweet potatoes are extra good with a little almond butter and ghee swirled in. As my mother would say "try it, you might like it!"

[ABW]

I would assume that you are having these tests done in conjunction with a doctor's office, can you ask your medical professional what their opinion is? I would think they would have some knowledge to share.