Paleo Bread??

[Mzboop]

I saw Pure Wraps on the Whole30 Approved tab but is paleo bread approved?

[Jtandi]

nope. any paleofied bakery goods are out. a great rule to remember is if it would push something else off your plate then you can't eat it (if you ate bread you would likely eat less veggies, etc).

a great substitute is always lettuce. I thought I would hate it but I actually like it now. I never tried the pure wraps but I haven't heard anything about the taste.

[Susan W]

I haven't tried the Pure Wraps because I can't find them locally and don't want to pay the shipping. I don't understand why they would be OK as a wrapper for food but bread or a crepe or pancake made with approved ingredients is not. Is it perhaps, the Pure Wraps is paying a licensing fee for the whole30-approved label? (sorry I'm a born cynic)

Oh my. You are going to get a bunch of folks unhappy with what you just said.

No, it is because they are simply a fairly tasteless wrap that is quite tasteless and simply holds ingredients together. Very different from bread.

[befabdaily]

Trust me you don't want the Paleo Bread anyway. The coconut flavor has a weird moldy damp taste, while the almond is so dry it will suck all the moisture out of your esophagus. It's really a horrible waste of $7, is all it is.

I personally would not blow the money on the expensive Pure Wraps either -- even if they are "compliant". But that's just me.

I have this motto for my W.O.E. now: All Killer, No Filler. Like a late night radio show. Bread and things that stand in for bread -- if you think about it, their purpose in the diet mostly isn't nutrition. It's to be glue, or to make food look bigger, or to be an edible container, or to allow you to eat with your hands.

[Susan W]

I did not word that correctly. Wraps just don't seem to hold the same "food with no breaks" as bread does. Making bread, muffins or a paleofied cake does not give you a psychological break from the foods that may have caused you problems. To me, a coconut wrap is similar to wrapping something in lettuce. If someone had an addiction to burritos or wraps, then I would suggest they avoid coconut wraps. With all of the excited talk about food around here, I would not say we take the joy out of it. Quite the opposite.

[CAK911]

I haven't bought the Pure Wraps, either, and I also like wrapping things in lettuce.

At our house, we do some "paleoified treats" stuff when we're not Whole 30ing, but pretty much only stuff we make ourselves. There are a few products I'd like to try, but probably not paleo bread. That's mainly because I really enjoy baking, and I haven't heard good things about the bread in general.

For me, the Whole 30 has actually made food more enjoyable for me. I've tried all kinds of things I didn't think I'd like. I've really changed my tastes, and we've gotten way, way more into cooking. Right this second, we have a huge pot of stew simmering on the stove, and we just finished making a pot of tomato soup. We're also prepping here and there to make an egg bake for the week. I think Whole 30 has changed my view of what a luxurious meal is, but I still love those kinds of meals. My favorite at the moment is oven steaks with baked sweet potato fries (Whole 30 friendly, and amazing).

[Kirsteen]

I'm on day 21 of my whole30, and overall it's been a good experience, but sometimes the things I read on the forums make it seem like the purpose of whole30 is to suck all of the enjoyment out of eating and view food as nothing but fuel for a machine. I'm not willing to go there.

I am really sorry you feel this way. There is no doubt that a lot of commercially prepared prepackaged processed food is deliberately treated with an array of chemicals to over stimulate our taste buds and literally set up an addiction for it. This is the kind of food W30 avoids. It also tells us to avoid taking compliant foods and trying to copy junk foods we've previously beed addicted to. Why? Well for one they'll never be quite what we were looking for and two, if we keep the memory of old previously loved junk foods alive like this, we're more likely to dive head first back into them after a W30.

W30 does aim to change our relationship with food and part of that is seeing it for what it is - fuel for our bodies. However, believe me, I want the very best tasting fuel I can get I learnt long ago that any way of eating that incorporates food I don't enjoy is doomed to failure as far as I'm concerned. Yes food is fuel for my body bit it's also a major source of enjoyment. I defy anyone to try the recipes in Well Fed or on Tom Denham's site or Johnny M's. and not enjoy it; that food is fabulous, compliant, healthy and delicious. Don't let anyone suck the enjoyment out of eating. You're absolutely right - don't go there

[bon]

Because it's tasteless it's good for you? But if it tasted good, it would be bad? That's strange logic to me. If I could create my own fairly tasteless food wrapper (aka pancake) from approved ingredients, would that be ok or would it be trying to recreate bread from approved ingredients?

I'm on day 21 of my whole30, and overall it's been a good experience, but sometimes the things I read on the forums make it seem like the purpose of whole30 is to suck all of the enjoyment out of eating and view food as nothing but fuel for a machine. I'm not willing to go there.

When I did my first Whole30 I felt much like you describe at the 3 week mark (and beyond)... and I can also relate to those feelings of the program taking the "enjoyment" out of food. I don't feel that way anymore, but it took awhile to get there. For me the Whole30 changed my taste-buds and some things that used to taste good just don't anymore and whole foods just taste better and better as time goes by. I think it's a process though and with a first Whole30 it can really feel like deprivation at times. I love food and I don't want anything changing that for me. It's taken me over a year of experimenting to find the right balance but I do feel like I'm finally getting there. We're talking about changing a lifetime of eating habits and the feelings that surround them. Not gonna happen in 30 days. If this forum is bugging you and getting in your head, you may need a break... I did. I was mad at it a little. Kill-joys - all of 'em;)

I realize now that it's a program that works and there has to be hard lines in place or it wouldn't be a program at all. ...and all this talk of what you can and cannot eat wouldn't go down if people just stuck to whole foods and quit asking if such and such is approved... poor mods have to vilify themselves to keep it legit. It makes me think of how confused we are about what's real and what isn't when we have to ask so many questions.

As for purewraps - they are so good. Slightly sweet but wouldn't detect that unless you've done a whole30 They are somewhat dry/paper-like in texture so don't offer the "mouth feel" of a bread. I personally could eat a whole loaf of paleo bread or pan of muffins but two pure wraps full of meat and veggies and I'm good. I love them for travel; less messy than a lettuce wrap.

[AmyB]

I really liked the Pure Wraps, but will only buy them occasionally as they are pretty expensive. I loved the curry ones with chicken salad. They have a totally different texture than a traditional "wrap." I think the only ingredients are coconut meat, coconut water, salt, and curry. No other flours. It's just something different to try; if you feel like it won't work for you (for whatever reason), then don't eat 'em! Problem solved.

[Robin Strathdee]

nksl -

I, too, am sorry you feel that way at this point. Many folks hit a blah/bored/over it phase during their Whole30. As for your concerns, I'll address those:

1. There is NO commission or financial benefit for us when a product becomes Whole30 approved. The benefit we get is from cross-promotion. I appreciate cynicism, for sure, but let's not assume.

2. If you were to take those ingredients, make a crepe/wrap shell yourself and fill it with meat, vegetables and healthy fat it would be just fine. The issue with "pancakes" and "crepes" is that they beg for fruit and syrup and other sweet toppings that a) encourage you to ignore the Meal Planning template designed to give you the most benefit at each meal and 2) reliance on those foods as breakfast foods keeps you from experiencing life outside the traditional breakfast box.

We're not here to suck the enjoyment out of food. Trust me, I enjoy everything I put in my mouth. But we are asking you to learn to find enjoyment in whole, unprocessed foods and without reliance unhealthy eating habits. Food is enjoyable, yes, but it should not be an emotional crutch.

[Jtandi]

nksl - I know exactly how you feel. I felt the exact same way, and when I found something - ANYTHING - I liked eating during my whole30 I felt guilty and thought for sure it was non-compliant. I felt like everything I had to change sucked the life out of food. it felt wrong to me that I couldn't even go and enjoy a cupcake with my family for a celebration. but along the way I learned so much about myself and my relationship with food.

I agree, week three is where I found this happening, too. I'm looking back over my log and watching my emotions and relationship change. I can honestly say now that in the end I have also found immense freedom from obsession over food and have more enjoyment than ever while eating. I have been able to sit with my family while they enjoy ice cream/cake/yogurt and enjoy being with them. I found that many times that I thought I was "enjoying" my food I was simply stuffing myself and was worried more about if there would be enough cake/cookies/ice cream for me. and I was worried about what other people were thinking about me watching me eat what/how I wanted. but it took me a long time to get here. and I got pretty resentful and angry on the way.

you may have a different starting relationship with food than others, so this journey is yours. you get to decide what things you have problems with and what things are completely fine for you. you get to decide if you are going to do things exactly by the book, or if your experience is something you can "tweak" to make more of your own - but, as is said before, if you do not do this 100% and don't get 100% of the results then don't be surprised. it's only 30 days. and at the end you can eat however you want.

it actually took me 100 days of strict 100% compliant eating to feel this way. but I believe it's totally and completely normal! I've read that around this time (3 week mark) our sugar dragon (bread dragon/whatever dragon) is taking one last ditch effort to just drag us back.

I'm glad you brought this out and I'm happy to see others saying how they experienced the exact same thing. this journey isn't sunshine and rainbows, it's not all "OH I'm SO happy I changed my eating! I feel SO MUCH BETTER ALL THE TIME!", at least not for me. I didn't like parts. I dare say I hated them...but I got through and today I'm happier and healthier!

[Robin Strathdee]

We do.

Now, I'm not going to play an apologetics game here and try to convince you of our perspective on everything you disagree with. That's not a valuable use of my time, or yours. I will address a couple of things, though, for clarification.

We don't recommend Primal Pacs as a snack, or even as a meal replacement except in cases of food "emergency". We recommend keeping them in a car, desk drawer or bag for those times when you really need them. They are high quality and ultimately portable. I guess I don't see how that's illogical - it really depends on your definition of "snack food".

Many of the people who make their way to our program come from a background of unhealthy dieting, reliance on weight as a measure of self worth, and generally screwed up relationships with food. Some of our recommendations are geared toward that population, but are absolutely not harmful to everyone all the time. If a person can't stay off the scale for a month, that is a really good indicator of a distorted relationship with that number. The same goes for the types of food (including pancakes) we ask you to exclude. In the end though, what we say really doesn't matter. We're all grown-ups and make our own choices when it comes to food. Plenty of people have "done Whole30" with pancakes, paleo bread, whatever. Have they really given the program a chance? No. But we're not the food police.

[Jtandi]

sorry, you responded while I was responding, but about the SWYPO - I think it's different for everyone, it's a very personal thing. but there are blanket things like paleofied bread/muffins/cakes because those things push other foods off our plates. if you were to use a purewrap in your meal you would not be eating 2 or 3 of them, and they are so small and thin that they are used to hold food together, not as an actual part of the meal. as Robin said, if you were to take an egg, crack it out onto a pan very thin in a "crepe" formation and use it to wrap your food it would be 100% complaint! if you were to make a loaf of bread and take two slices and make a sandwich out of it the amount of food from the bread would be significantly larger than what a purewrap is.

ingredients, to me, make a difference, too. pure wraps are 100% coconut. that's it. coconut is actually very healthy for us, so using it in a meal is actually beneficial. we use coconut milk, etc, all the time. breads/muffins/etc are mainly flour. but if you make them as egg muffins/etc where ingredients are eggs and veggies, they are ok.

finally there is the aspect of our relationship with food. I'll give my personal experience - I completed my whole100. for the first time I decided to make some paleofied muffins. the ingredients were zucchini, apples, almond butter, eggs. that's it. then when they were done I put some coconut butter on the top...it melted and looked like frosting. I found myself hiding in my kitchen eating one. I brought two to work for a snack. I snacked on both while no one was looking. they didn't taste like cupcakes, etc, but to ME they triggered that. this is a chance for me to confront this, but I needed time away from actual breads and miffins (even paleofied) to make this pattern or behavior this obvious for me.

hope that helps a little!

[MelliebuStacey]

W30 does aim to change our relationship with food and part of that is seeing it for what it is - fuel for our bodies. However, believe me, I want the very best tasting fuel I can get I learnt long ago that any way of eating that incorporates food I don't enjoy is doomed to failure as far as I'm concerned. Yes food is fuel for my body bit it's also a major source of enjoyment. I defy anyone to try the recipes in Well Fed or on Tom Denham's site or Johnny M's. and not enjoy it; that food is fabulous, compliant, healthy and delicious. Don't let anyone suck the enjoyment out of eating. You're absolutely right - don't go there

We're not here to suck the enjoyment out of food. Trust me, I enjoy everything I put in my mouth. But we are asking you to learn to find enjoyment in whole, unprocessed foods and without reliance unhealthy eating habits. Food is enjoyable, yes, but it should not be an emotional crutch.

These two points more than summate what I have to say. My W30 and my post-W30 life have been filled with learning experiences, healthy habits replacing negative ones, and a new appreciation for food (from the quality of the fuel I choose now to the delicious new recipes under my belt, this has been an overall wonderful experience). I see no issue with choosing my fuel wisely (my body is a Ferrari and it deserves high-octane primo fuel. Serious). You get ONE shot at this life thing...give this a sincere crack, have FUN with it (this is a sustainable lifestyle, not a one-off crash diet. You have to put in work to make it work that way), and I can guarantee that you'll see the light. Alternately, go half a$$ed, and bemoan the difficulty. My $0.02.

[MelliebuStacey]

I don't think this is a reasonable statement from a scientific (biology or psychology) statement.

As one who has suffered from and is in recovery from both extreme anorexia and bulimia, and who has a degree in neuroscience and extensive post secondary education in psychology, I can tell you that you are wrong. Sorry.

[MelliebuStacey]

For people with eating disorders, I'd agree with you. For everyone---nope, sorry, you're wrong. I have three graduate degrees---one in Clinical Psychology (I've worked on inpatient eating disorders units) and two (including a PhD) in Measurement Science--so this isn't my uneducated opinion. See the research on progress monitoring and behavior change, as one reason why, along with studies that have shown that one characteristic of successful long-term weight losers is daily weight checks.

Never said it was a trigger for everybody. I also am saying that it's a rule on a Whole30 for a reason. And I'll reference my earlier post, where I also said that it's your choice as to whether you either pick and choose the rules which you follow on your whole 30, half a$$ it and get suboptimal results from the program, or you go balls out and see the difference that a whole30 will make in jumpstarting your whole9LIFE. Also, a whole30 is NOT about weight loss; ergo, this argument which you are trying very hard to win is null and void. If you can't put the scale away for a month in order to follow the rules of an elimination diet meant to get you into the mindset of what a whole9lifer does for their WHOLE LIFE, then it isn't the plan for you. Period. Also, you're more than welcome to bring the scale back into your life post-whole30, IF IT IS SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT CAUSE YOU MENTAL OR EMOTIONAL DISTRESS.. That said, point of eliminating it for the 30 days is to figure out whether the scale IS an issue for you, whether you're aware of it or not. I'm sorry to be abrasive, however, this thread went from an innocent question to a rather derogatory pissing match, and quickly. If what you've claimed in regards to your prior work experience in inpatient eating disorder units is valid, then you of all people should be the first to recognize that the unfortunate truth of the matter is that the vast majority of people these days have a disordered relationship with food, and as an unfortunate corollary, their body image (which is not to say that they have an eating disorder). Hate to rain on your parade. Rules are rules. And I chose to follow them during my W30, and in my W9life.

[Derval]

Nksl,

Why not either do the program as written or don't do it? Rather than picking it apart and arguing the toss? Nobody made you come here did they? If you don't belive in the program don't do it, just do regular paleo.

[MelliebuStacey]

Nksl,

Why not either do the program as written or don't do it? Rather than picking it apart and arguing the toss? Nobody made you come here did they? If you don't belive in the program don't do it, just do regular paleo.

:wub: :wub: :wub:

[AToE]

Saying that weighing oneself on a regular basis has a positive effect on weightloss would have made sense (is accurate yes, but not in the context of a whole30 discussion) if the discussion had been about weightloss... or the program about weightloss... or anyone had even mentioned weightloss... You've basically done something I see people do all the time, make up an argument that nobody actually started in the first place, then win that argument (obviously, since you were the only person in it).

[MelliebuStacey]

Saying that weighing oneself on a regular basis has a positive effect on weightloss would have made sense (is accurate yes, but not in the context of a whole30 discussion) if the discussion had been about weightloss... or the program about weightloss... or anyone had even mentioned weightloss... You've basically done something I see people do all the time, make up an argument that nobody actually started in the first place, then win that argument (obviously, since you were the only person in it).

Yup. And really, this is the whole30 forum. So congrats on winning an argument with the wrong crowd.

[AToE]

Yup. And really, this is the whole30 forum. So congrats on winning an argument with the wrong crowd.

Ha, a crowd who never even said anything about getting rid of the scale being the best way to lose weight

[AToE]

I want to make sure I have the argument straight: weighing oneself has been shown to result in more weightloss - therefore, this program, which has nothing to do with weightloss, is wrong to be saying take a break from the scale for one single month (for purposes having nothing to do with weightloss)... correct me if I have that wrong...

[Robin Strathdee]

For people with eating disorders, I'd agree with you. For everyone---nope, sorry, you're wrong. I have three graduate degrees---one in Clinical Psychology (I've worked on inpatient eating disorders units) and two (including a PhD) in Measurement Science--so this isn't my uneducated opinion. See the research on progress monitoring and behavior change, as one reason why, along with studies that have shown that one characteristic of successful long-term weight losers is daily weight checks.

You're spot on in the progress monitoring department, for sure. We just ask folks to use a different measurement of progress for the 30 days. I should have posted these earlier, but these links give a GREAT overview of why we ask folks to stay off the scale during these 30 days.

Duh me.

http://whole9life.com/2013/04/repost-break-up-with-your-scale/

http://whole9life.com/2012/08/new-health-scale/

[Robin Strathdee]

Hey now friends, let's not jump on the "you're with us or get out of here" train - nksl has taken issue with some of the program guidelines (but is still completing the program!!!) and that deserves discussion. We're not asking for blind obedience, just trust in the program.

[Renee Lee]

Hey guys, can we all simmer down?

A lot of people wound up finding out about Paleo and Whole30 by being skeptics and cynics and investigating things for themselves; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and as both a staunch libertarian and a fangirl of Timothy Leary, I am the FIRST person to encourage you to "think for yourself, question authority."

So while there's nothing wrong with respectfully questioning the methods and the rules of a program, coming into the program's house and denounces a part of it rubs me the wrong way. I'm not a big fan of that. There's a method to the madness. The W30 has evolved over 5 years, fine-tuning the rules based on new science as well as the testimonials of the people that M&D have worked with over the years and what their keys to success were;

Clarified butter? used to not be allowed. Bacon? used to not be allowed, regardless of source. Sugar? used to be allowed in small quantities (those chicken sausages with the 1g of sugar in them? they used to be in). Weighing yourself? Never used to be prohibited.

Over the years, M&D found that people did MUCH better when they stayed off the scale for 30 days. WE WANT YOU TO BE SUCCESSFUL, so they added the rule.

Like Robin said earlier; we're all adults here. do the program or don't do the program, cherry pick your rules to whatever you feel is best for you, but it's written the way it is for a reason. Science first, then clinical experience, and then self-experimentation tops the pyramid.