Where do you draw the line in Paleofying foods?

[Lyn1]

I understand that you can't Paleofy things like cupcakes and other desserts on the Whole 30, but where do you draw the line? I see recipes on here for things like coconut "whipped cream", fried chicken, cauliflower "rice" and "mashed potatoes" and such. Isn't this paleofying comfort foods? If this is okay, then is it okay to make almond milk (almonds, vanilla bean, and dates) or milkshakes with coconut milk, strawberries, and dates?

[karacooks]

So my disclaimer here is that I have not yet started my Whole30, but I've spent today doing a lot of planning and thinking and making shopping lists and looking at recipes in preparation. That said:

I think for me, the "paleofying" comes in when you try to recreate something that you crave or that is simply not possible to make without serious modification of the structure of the food. I mash cauliflower all the time ... I don't think of it as a mashed potato substitute, becuase, quite frankly, it's not and never will be. You'll never get the fluffy, creamy texture of mashed potatoes from cauliflower. But as a puree, I like cauliflower for what it is. Whipping coconut cream to get a certain texture doesn't mean I'm trying to recreate real cream; it means I'm looking for a certain texture as part of a recipe. If I were doing it because I couldn't give up cream and I was faking myself into believing it was "the same" .. then I wouldn't do it.

For that reason, I won't make "protein pancakes" or try the dessert recipes I've seen or anything like that.

But other things? Sure. I oven bake thin sliced zucchini to make "chips" - not because I think I'm eating a substitue for potato chips, but because having something crunchy satisfies that need to "crunch" something and I like the flavor. I make baked kale chips for the same reason. I have been whipping coconut cream long before I ever thought about doing any kind of whole30 plan .. because I like the flavor and texture of it, which is different from cream. I bake spaghetti squash and serve it with marinara, not because I think it replaces pasta (it doesn't and never will) but because I love spaghetti squash.

So for me, that's where I draw the line. If I"m trying to "make" something else, I won't do it. If I'm fixing something that I think will work in a recipe and I enjoy the taste and texture of it, I'll do it.

[Andrea D.]

If I were to reply I would say the exact same thing karacooks said...for me she got it exactly right.

[Lyn1]

I think I get what you're saying. I'm just confused as to whether or not I should drink the afore-mentioned drinks I make with coconut milk, strawberries, and dates. I enjoy it just as much as a milkshake. ....but I don't think it's really a milkshake. Is that okay?

[Johnny M]

I'm going to say no. It's not that paleo-fied foods are inherently bad as much as they're typically used to support bad behaviors with less bad foods. It's like smoking a light cigarette. You do have to draw the line somewhere though. For instance, on my whole30s i've blended frozen berries with coconut milk, called it ice cream, and enjoyed it occasionally however prior to my whole30, I had no real issue with sweets or ice cream. It wasn't a regular part of my diet so occasionally enjoying a serving of fruit, frozen and blended instead of whole, is ok with me. Remember even if your "milkshake" is paleo, it's going to carry a somewhat abnormal caloric, carb, and sugar punch, and my point is not that we necessarily care about those macronutrients as much as it's something you wouldn't get from eating one of those foods alone and whole. It's supernormally stimulating in a way that's confusing to your body and mind. So spend 30 days totally erasing those habits and if you want to add your shake back in post-whole30, you'll have the awareness of how everything you eat effects you to do so comfortably.

[karacooks]

Hm. Here's my thought on the milkshake thing - if you're making it in order to enjoy the "treat" of a milkshake-like item, then no, don't do it.

One of the things I've been planning on my shopping list is how to recreate my usual morning smoothie using no dairy. My go-to breakfast is a smoothie made with greek yogurt as a base, then I add fruit, spinach or kale, and protein powder. I don't drink a smoothie because it is milkshake-like, but because it's an easy way to get something for breakfast that packs a nutritional punch and that I can put in my travel mug and drink on the way to work.

For me, making a Whole30 smoothie isn't about trying to cram Whole30 food into a "treat" mold. It's about a quick on-the-go breakfast that sets me up nutritionally for the rest of the day. I know my Whole 30 smoothie will probably not taste or look anything like my standard dairy based one ... and I"m ok with that.

I wouldn't, however try to make the same thing for an "after dinner treat" ... to me that would be cheating the program.

Then again, keep in mind that I'm one of those people who have a "by the book" mentality when it comes to this kind of thing. One of the things that drives me crazy on my own message board is people who say they "did" a program and it "didn't work" ... only to find out that they made X or Y or Z exception. I find that most of the time when someone says "that program didn't work for me" it's because they didn't really work the program.

[Adagio]

I draw the line at Paleo-fying my trigger foods, which are nut flour baked goods, and fruity dessert concoctions, or smoothies.

[Robin Strathdee]

I think Johnny pretty much nailed it, so I'll only add a little personal experience and a few thoughts.

Thoughts first:

One essential part of the Whole30 program is to examine and consider your relationship with food. Both how it affects you physiologically and how it affects you psychologically.Often, the psychological aspect is the hardest for folks to change. We have a culture built around food - food as celebration, food as reward, food as consolation... And, often, the foods people are looking to recreate with approved ingredients fit into one of those categories.

While it's sometimes unconscious, our inner dialogue goes something like this: "I had a bad day and I deserve a treat. I'm going to make (insert food here) and that will make me feel better." Or maybe, "I totally nailed that presentation! I'm going to make a (insert food here) to reward myself."

And, like Johnny pointed out, we often go to great lengths to make those foods supernormally stimulating which causes a hightened reaction in the reward centers of our brains and further solidifies our desire to use food in an inappropriate way.

Now, some experience:

Personally, there are some foods I've learned I have to stay away from because they feed that inappropriate food cycle (Whole30 or not). Coconut whipped cream and any form of breakfast pancake, muffin, bar, etc are two of them. Why? Because I will make coconut whipped cream and, even though I don't particularly love it, use it to fill one of those roles. I'll put it on fruit and be fine. But then I'll get stressed out... and I stand in the fridge and eat it with a spoon. Or I add cocoa powder and a little Stevia to it and eat it like pudding (post Whole30, or Whole30 fail out). Or I add some sprinkles because why the heck not. It's not a healthy cycle for me and I've come to recognize that through the program.

SO, all that to say... You have to really examine a coupe of things before you make the call on borderline foods:

1) Why do I want to eat/drink this? Am I just looking for a "treat" or will it fill some nutritional role?

2) Could I accomplish the same thing (reward, food role - like quick breakfast) with another activity (reward) or whole, more appropriate foods (nutrition).

And that is all :0)

[Derval]

I know I am guilty of "when the kids go to bed I am going to sit down and have berries & coconut, oh yes I am, yum yum"......

But then is that like saying if something tastes really good and is w30 approved ingredients, and you look forward to it, means it's not W30 compliant?

[karacooks]

Huh. I think people are getting hung up on the "enjoyment" aspect.

What I took from reading all the materials on the website is that part of the goal of the Whole30 is to teach people to appreciate and enjoy REAL food again. To help people rediscover the flavors and tastes and textures of whole, normal, food, prepared simply and beautifully.

From that perspective, there is nothing wrong with a treat of fresh fruit and coconut cream. Or a treat of a mango. I look forward every year to cherry season and they are a huge treat to me. Should I stop eating foods that I enjoy in order to be Whole30 compliant? Absolutely not.

Where the problems come in are when you start changing the fundamental structure of the food in order to create something that would normally be made with unhealthy ingredients. Making Whole30 compliant "cake" or muffins doesn't change the fact that you're eating cake and muffins. Making a Whole30 "milkshake" with bananas and fruit and dates doesn't change the fact that you're drinking a fake milkshake. It doesn't teach you to appreciate the flavor and texture of the food itself - it's just making it into something else.

There shouldn't be anything wrong with enjoying your food and looking forward to what you're going to eat. I'm eagerly anticipating the pulled pork that is on the grill right now ... yum! It's going to be fabulous with a spicy sauce and some cole slaw for dinner tonight.

Don't get hung up on the enjoyment aspect. That's not what this is about.

[habitualpurpose]

Okay...so let me ask a question about this. Before Whole30, my eating habits weren't great. I snacked regularly and usually on really not healthy stuff. I've been doing pretty well on Whole30 and have been nutritionally/content compliant. I did snack on pistachios more than I wanted in the beginning and have stopped that "habit" over the past week. I am trying to pay attention to when my body is telling me it's truly hungry and to only snack if that's the signal I'm getting outside of my 3 meals. However, I have once in a while "indulged" in the evening after kids are in bed in sliced banana and a tablespoon of almond butter. While I know that nutritionally I'm compliant, I'm concerned that this replacement behavior. Any thoughts?

[Johnny M]

Nina - perfect is the enemy of good. Learn self control but if you occasionally enjoy that treat, you should have that treat. I think Melissa and Dallas would say that context matters. If you are a binge eater or habitual snacker or addicted to sugar, you should avoid your banana treat a bit more than others. If you've been doing well, are not having serious cravings, have good self-control, and you want to eat your bananas and nut butter - go for it!

[habitualpurpose]

Nina - perfect is the enemy of good. Learn self control but if you occasionally enjoy that treat, you should have that treat. I think Melissa and Dallas would say that context matters. If you are a binge eater or habitual snacker or addicted to sugar, you should avoid your banana treat a bit more than others. If you've been doing well, are not having serious cravings, have good self-control, and you want to eat your bananas and nut butter - go for it!

Thanks for this, Johnny--especially for "perfect is the enemy of good". I think if I were to do it every day or almost every day I'd see it as an issue (and yes--I do have a habitual snacker past) but here and there is fine.

[Adagio]

One thing I've learned from years of dieting and being on diet forums is that it's much better not to make generalizations about people's relationship with food based on your own feelings about food. Some folks may eat for reasons other than hunger, while others don't. Some folks can be completely satisfied with an occasional fruit smoothie or a coconut cream parfait, while those foods may cause others to derail in a big way. Food reward is a complicated issue.

[Johnny M]

interestingly, I'd gamble that most people have FAR FEWER food reward issues with actual whole30 foods. This is a tangent but those cravings are engineered in part by food companies then shoved down our throats. One of the nice things people will experience during a whole30 if they follow the rules is much healthier food relationships.

[Lyn1]

Wow, this is all so helpful. Thanks! I guess it's what the food in question means to each individual person. I have to admit, I was looking for a treat. I love treats! ....and am a sugar addict. So, I better stay away from the "milkshakes". (sigh)

Also, I'd better not make the fried chicken recipe I saw on this site for the July 4th meal ideas. I LOVE fried chicken!

I have to say though, after I'm done with the Whole 30, I think I'll have paleofied treats instead of the "real" thing. It's much healthier, right?

[Robin Strathdee]

The idea of SWYPO paleo-fied foods is highly individual. What may be perfectly healthy for one person may be completely derailing for others. It was mentioned above, and deserves clarification, that we are usually talking about changing the structure of a whole food to make it resemble something that it's not. Coconut cream rides the safe side of the line unless, like for me, it's a bad decision trigger food.

[Johnny M]

...I have to say though, after I'm done with the Whole 30, I think I'll have paleofied treats instead of the "real" thing. It's much healthier, right?

Yes...100%. There is so much behind the food recommendations and limitations in whole30. For instance, typical wheat flour might make you feel crappy. But it also might disrupt your gut health, increase your body's inflammation, lead to getting sick more often, mess with your blood sugar, make you gain fat, etc. There's a reason removing these foods makes us feel better.

[Lora Friedenthal]

Good topic. I have been wondering myself what the difference is between paleofying food and just using a recipe. Shepherd's pie made with mashed cauliflower is fine, for instance, but a pancake isn't, but they're both still examples of finding a way to substitute in something good for something bad in order to achieve the resulting dish you want.

The answer, I guess, is whether the food in question is one that you like or one that you *need*?

[Johnny M]

One of the things outlined in the ISWF book is 4 criteria for determining if a food is ok to eat or not. One of those criteria is that a food does not elicit an unhealthy psychological response. An example of this would be something like sugar. Someone addicted to sugar will often think about and crave sugar and not feel better until they have it. But this could be any food that messes with your head and elicits this sort of craving and need. When I eat pancakes I eat as many as I can as fast as I can topped with as much maple syrup as a flat plate will hold and then feel super speedy and wired yet sad and lethargic and sick. I crave them in a pretty unhealthy way. This is not a positive psychological relationship for me, so even if i could replace them with something compliant, paleo pancakes are out. I've never gotten cold sweats over paleo shepherd's pie and then eaten it until I wanted to cry so there's the difference for me.

[Derval]

. I've never gotten cold sweats over paleo shepherd's pie and then eaten it until I wanted to cry so there's the difference for me.

maybe if you put a couple of fried egg on top?

[karacooks]

Shepherd's pie made with mashed cauliflower is fine, for instance, but a pancake isn't, but they're both still examples of finding a way to substitute in something good for something bad in order to achieve the resulting dish you want

I think this is where individual need/want/crave comes in. To me a shepherds pie made with mashed cauliflower on top would in no way be a traditional shepherd's pie. Then again there are a ton of other things that go into a real shepherd's pie ... so I don't think it's possible to make one that is Whole30 compliant. I honestly wouldn't even consider them the same dish. So there's that.

But the idea of making something similar to shepherd's pie that is compliant actually sounds pretty good to me. How could I make a shepherd's pie inspired dish that is Whole30? That's a fun challenge. Might I use cauli puree? Yes, because I have never thought of cauli as any kind of mashed potato sub ... I make cauliflower soup all the time because I love cauli soup .. not because I think it's a sub for potato soup.

So, for someone who is maybe not all that fond of cauli or thinks of it neutrally but is thinkign specifically "hey this is a way for me to have "mashed potatoes" w/out having them", then I think it would be a bad idea.

For someone who thinks, "hm, what kind of topping can I put on a shepherd's pie that isn't potatoes that would still be yummy" I think it would be valid recipe.

I'm kind of rambling here to explain how I feel, but if you're trying to recreate another food out of an allowed food, then bad (cauli = fake mashed potatoes). If you're experimenting with a recipe to find compatible textures and flavors, then good (pureed cauli is yummy and would add the right texture, too). And I think that's a different line for everyone. If that makes any sort of sense?

[karacooks]

Just to add to my above about individual tastes: I mentioned in another thread that coconut wraps would be verboten for me. I crave bread, tortillas, pita, wraps. Heck, I'll eat a whole french baguette warm out of the oven w/out even blinking. And then wlonder where it went. To have a coconut wrap where I could say "mmmmm bread like substance"? BAD idea. Bad. Very very very bad. Watch Kara gorge herself on fake bread.

OTOH, I don't think of cauliflower as a potato substitute. I love pureed cauliflower for what it is - to me it's very different from potatoes and I love cauli in any form whatsoever - steamed, roasted, raw, baked, or in soup. So for me to eat a plate of pureed cauliflower is in no way about gorging myself on potatoes.

But some people have absolutely no trigger with bread and so a coconut wrap is no big deal for them, whereas fake potatoes? NOM!!!

We're all different. We all have different triggers.

[Laura B]

For me, it's nuts and nut butters. I am going to do my best to avoid them! I'm ok if I portion them out ahead of time, but if my hand is just going into the bag/container it is bad news! I had a few before my workout last night and I was OK. I don't think it was much of a craving, really. Just some quick and easy fats

[MeadowLily]

On 7/1/2012 at 9:21 AM, Johnny M said:

I'm going to say no. It's not that paleo-fied foods are inherently bad as much as they're typically used to support bad behaviors with less bad foods. It's like smoking a light cigarette. You do have to draw the line somewhere though. For instance, on my whole30s i've blended frozen berries with coconut milk, called it ice cream, and enjoyed it occasionally however prior to my whole30, I had no real issue with sweets or ice cream. It wasn't a regular part of my diet so occasionally enjoying a serving of fruit, frozen and blended instead of whole, is ok with me. Remember even if your "milkshake" is paleo, it's going to carry a somewhat abnormal caloric, carb, and sugar punch, and my point is not that we necessarily care about those macronutrients as much as it's something you wouldn't get from eating one of those foods alone and whole. It's supernormally stimulating in a way that's confusing to your body and mind. So spend 30 days totally erasing those habits and if you want to add your shake back in post-whole30, you'll have the awareness of how everything you eat effects you to do so comfortably.

One of the best answers and actually a good definition of a SWYPO.  Leaning heavy on dates after meals is a dessert. All dried fruits have the water removed which also gives them a high sugar punch if eaten in excess.