Am I Going Rogue? and what about rye kvass?

[silk]

I have been sticking to the basic whole30 outline. I'm on day 17 and I'm starting to wonder about things that aren't on the list and aren't off the list: where do raw cacao nibs, micro-algae, coconut kefir, and herbal remedies stand?

I see there's a thread on supplements. I thought all supplements were off for the whole30?

What about rye kvass? (kombucha is tea kvass, rye kvass is Russian style made from old sourdough bread. I'd say no because of the bread, but yes because kvass turns everything into something else. There's a Russian bathhouse here in SF that makes a fantastic in-house rye kvass; if I can't have it on the whole30, I'm not going there until I'm done.

I've had a wicked headache for a few days now, and I see lots of posts about wicked headaches, so is what I did kosher? Today I ditched the black tea with coconut milk and made a batch of ginger and tumeric tea. It's afternoon now and I'm feeling so much better.

There's posts about being sure you eat enough, but I'm feeling like I've been eating too heavily for me, so I'm hanging out with a batch of bone broth chicken soup with carrots and lots of greens, mostly kale and tat soi. Compliant foods, but doesn't fit the 'hand' model per se, or at least not that I can tell, since it's soup. But I'm feeling like my digestive system needs some rest and I may be mildly dehydrated from drinking black tea.

So, am I good or am I going rogue, though technically compliant?

[Jo Ferris]

seems like you are listening to your body and doing well at that re: the headache. ginger and turmeric are both fine things to eat and drink on program and theres nothing wrong with ditching the black tea if you think they were causing the headaches. makes me wonder why the black tea is doing that to you ... is it a good one or just a bag from the supermarket?

i know beet kvass is allowed on W30 can't say as far as rye kvass.... i think I would stay off of it even if it's technically allowed (just me talking) cause I love beer and I've heard it tastes a lot like beer... so that's a slippery slope for me.

I eat a lot of soup. sometimes it's more brothy and I'm hungry sooner, so I just have some more. nothing wrong with that I don't think as long as you are not using it to replace an unhealthy habit.

i definitely struggle with not eating enough, that's one thing about W30, a LOT of chewing and prepping... and I'm lazy!

[Melissa Urban]

Don't worry if all meals don't fit the template - bone broths, for example, are a great way to add nutrients to your day, although as it's not a "meal" you'll want to make sure you're drinking a cup with a meal, instead of instead of a meal.

Rye kvass = not a chance. It's bread. The "kvass" part doesn't change any of the potential downsides of the gluten and other problematic proteins and compounds found in grains.

Herbal teas = good to go (just read your labels - some include off-plan ingredients or sweeteners)

Cocoa nibs = approved. (Read: http://whole9life.com/2010/09/the-great-cocoa-debate/)

Algae = approved (but I'm not sure why you'd need that...)

Coconut kefir = approved as long as there is no added sugar

Herbal supplements = depends on the ingredients - read carefully

Supplements are neither encouraged nor discouraged on the plan - it's entirely up to you. Just read your labels as you would with food, as many supplements include ingredients that are off-limits for your Whole30.

Hope this helps,

Melissa

[silk]

Thanks, Melissa. I'm taking "Algae = approved (but I'm not sure why you'd need that...)" as a question.

As I contemplated it last night, I figured there's not much that any of us 'need' on this forum. We don't truly need almond flour, or double fermented kombucha, or yet another recipe. All we really need is some local food in season and some ideas on how to prepare it.

But humans haven't been satisfied with that. Something in human desire led to coffee, teas, and spices traveling thousands of miles via trade routes. As someone who's never desired coffee, I don't understand the desire for it. I don't even like the smell of coffee. But I practically swoon every time I break open a cardamom pod. I can't tell you why that is.

The same is true for me and micro-algae and wheatgrass. I love they way they smell, the way they taste, the way I feel when I've had them. Micro-algae has been an occasional part of my diet (more in the warmer months, less in the cold) for some thirty years now. I like it. I like wheatgrass juice too (I noticed you said 'yuck' about that in another post and questioned why someone would want it.)

Someone once introduced me to the concept of foods that 'beckon' and foods that 'hum.' Foods that beckon are seductive but ultimately take more than they give -- like sugar. Foods that hum nourish, make us feel good in that vital kind of way. Microalgae hums to me. I feel good just trying to explain it to you, like trying to explain what I love about a dear friend, and knowing that I can't really explain, but just contemplating that friendship feels good.

I've never understood why people want me to justify my enjoyment of microalgae or why it's so controversial. I almost didn't ask about it, after seeing your response to wheatgrass, but I figured, in for a penny, in for a pound.

[Robin Strathdee]

I've never understood why people want me to justify my enjoyment of microalgae or why it's so controversial. I almost didn't ask about it, after seeing your response to wheatgrass, but I figured, in for a penny, in for a pound.

I love what you said about cardamom - that one holds a special place in my heart (because of a family recipe).

I don't know that the intent was to ask you to justify your enjoyment at all, just the need. Most folks who take algae and other "super food" supplements do so because of the supposed health benefits, not out of enjoyment. On a plan like W30, followed correctly, those supplements are superfluous.

[silk]

As I said before in other posts, I've had hep c for possibly 43 years, though it was diagnosed only 4 years ago. After a biopsy, they gushed about the beauty of my liver cells, and my liver specialist told me to keep doing whatever it was I've been doing. I can't say what all factors are involved in my being in such good shape, and neither can they.

Does long term use of microalgae have anything to do with it? I wish I could time travel and re-live the last thirty years without microalgae in my diet and compare the health of my liver, but I can't, so I don't make any health claims about it. I just know my body feels good when I eat it and that's good enough for me. Some people say it's a good and important food for the liver, especially for people with liver disease. Some say it's an expensive marketing con, or at least a superfluous supplement, as you do.

Kind of like calf liver -- when I first told my (post-diagnosis) acupuncturist and naturopath that I wanted to eat liver, they said no way. Is liver a nutrient dense super food or a toxic sponge? It depends on who you talk to. and what about people who can't stand the taste of liver but want the benefit and eat dessicated liver? Is that then food or a supplement? I'd call it a supplement but they're still working with a food. Does part of my good health come from growing up eating liver and raw meat? My mom would think so.

Since the diagnosis four years ago, I've been doing dietary experiments. I like to think that my good health allows me to experiment on behalf of the hep c community, but I'm coming to appreciate that every body is different. Little by little I'm learning to listen to my body over anyone's opinion about the foods I choose. Every dietary philosophy that I've experimented with has its own prejudices. The only thing everyone seems to agree on is vegetables!

[silk]

Jo -- it's taken me a few days to be able to answer your question, as I had to experiment with the tea thing. I drink high quality, unbagged, tea --tea is the only 'vice' I have left, so I do it up! I've been able to re-introduce it, after eating lighter for a few days and adding liver-support herbs and drinks. Whenever I do a dietary experiment, I pull out my personal habits, good and liver supportive though they may be, to see what happens when I do the bare bones of whatever is being recommended.

I think my headaches were from liver congestion and eating too much. I can appreciate the directives to stick to the three meals, hungry or not, but in my case, with my liver, the prime directive is 'don't eat when you're not hungry.' I think the whole30 is by and large a great thing, but in my case, I think it's not been a great choice -- I just came off a different kind of restriction and wouldn't have considered this at this time except to do it in support of my son. Now he's fallen off and I'm still here! And I wouldn't consider stopping short.

[Jo Ferris]

it sounds like you didn't necessarily need to "reframe" your thinking about body awareness and the hunger fullness directive but this was more of an elimination diet for you that perhaps you didn't need.

I think the reasons why they say to eat 3 meals, hungry or not, is cause a lot of us are coming off of unhealthy eating patterns and our hormones are whacked because of our irregular meals and snacks and eating the wrong things. Like for me, the whole eat breakfast thing... I have NEVER made myself do that before W30, because to me it was an old wives tale, but once I understood the science behind it and how it may be effecting and contributing to my hormonal imbalance, insomnia, etc... I realized I had to do it. (I have PCOS diagnosed 4x the proper amount of androgens in a female)

So yes I completely agree with you that in your case, coming off of other very restricted eating and already having a body awareness, that was one thing that you did not need retraining in.

In fact, that's part of the beauty of the Whole 9, and the Whole 30 IMO, that it does recognize that not everyone is going to use the W30 the same way, that it's just a tool to find out where our unhealthy food habits come from, what foods bother us the most, and what our triggers are.

Glad you can drink your tea again!

I really hope that coffee is something I can eventually have again. I'm hankerin' for it something awful. it really is a comforting ritual that I miss, so far it doesn't seem to have made a difference being off of it for a couple days so... anyway I don't mind being off of it for now.

[silk]

Yeah, I feel you on the ritual thing! I periodically go off tea, because it's something I can get 'too' habituated too, and anything that I can't drop for a week to a month now and again is a red flag to me. And there's nothing like that first cup of tea when I've been off it for a while -- no taking for granted there!

Caring for ourselves is a kind of ritual in itself, perhaps. Lately, I've been in the practice of thanking my stove and kitchen when I clean up at the end of the day. All the nourishment it helps me have. I'm enjoying that ritual.

And I feel you on the breakfast thing! It took me a long time to say 'yes' to breakfast, and even longer to say 'yes' to getting up before sunrise. Nowadays, I fantasize about cities (I live in a big one) turning off their lights at night, so that we can all enjoy darkness. But we don't trust each other enough for that. Sigh. Now I'm getting into my existential cravings!

[Jo Ferris]

I hear ya!

I live on a mountain, and I am SO thankful for the darkness at night, the stars are incredible out here and there's nothing like a roaring bonfire with friends at night to feel bonded and safe. I could only do the city for one year. at the end of that year I just had to move, it was that or become a shut in.

I love your nightly ritual of being grateful for your kitchen. I may have to try that cause i am very much resenting clean up right now, but it would be awesome to put a grateful spin on it.

[silk]

Twist the knife, girlfriend! Not just a mountain, but bonfires, and B.C too! It's so beautiful up there.

Come to think of it, I am kind of a shut in; city life is a bit superfluous when 9 pm is your definition of late at night. But sometimes there's the Argentine tango, or the waltz in period costumes. Sometimes there's out of the city and wild dancing in desert canyons. So it's all right.

But, whether mountain or city, north, south, east or west, bonfired, electrified or in the dark, we all gotta clean the kitchen. Often! So here's to your grateful, graceful, spin, Jo of the Mountain.

[Jo Ferris]

you know, i LOVED visiting San Fran. it was one of few cities I felt like I wanted to explore more. I loved the coast, especially the coast north of SF But i couldn't live in San Fran... or any city for long. Though I agree, it's a good city, and lots to do.

right now it's cold and grey here so I'd take a little of the sunny weather that San Fran is so famous for although I heard from a friend it's been uncharacteristically rainy there of late.

I wouldn't ever want to trade my mountain paradise (read; hillbilly backwoods shack but a paradise to me).... it's taken a long time for us to get here, 17 yrs of marriage and even longer for me dreaming of this little property here on the mountain where I can have chickens and sheep and ramble around on my property and by the creek without seeing a house. ...

downgrading in size and style of home... but the land kept getting a little bigger every time we sold and moved so... we're finally here.

[Johnny M]

It was 70 degrees here today But living on a mountain sounds soooo nice. I live on a muni line so while everything is super convenient every 15 minutes it sounds like a mack truck is plowing through my living room.