Why aren't the rules complete?

[Jim Baunach]

From reading the rules, I can have any oil that does not come from a grain or legume?  This is just conjecture because the rules are completely silent on this other than no grains or legumes.   Do I need to go to this forum every time to figure out whether I can have a specific oil or not?

Thanks.

Jim

[ShannonM816]

Any oil that comes from a food that is allowed, is allowed. So you can't have soybean oil or peanut oil, and canola oil is not ideal (you can read more about that in the Can I Have list:  https://whole30.com/the-official-can-i-have-guide-to-the-whole30/). Those are the obviously not allowed ones. Olive oil, coconut oil, macadamia nut oil, sesame oil, almond oil, truffle oil, avocado oil, walnut oil -- all allowed, though this list is not complete, because there's lots of options out there, and even if I tried to list them all, I'd be likely to miss something. 

The rules have some very specific things you cannot have. There are some more specifics in the downloads available here:  https://whole30.com/pdf-downloads/. If you come across something that isn't listed in the rules or these downloads, and googling that ingredient plus whole30 doesn't turn up anything definitive, it's probably ok to have. 

[Jim Baunach]

7 minutes ago, ShannonM816 said:

Any oil that comes from a food that is allowed, is allowed...

Grains are not allowed.  Are all seeds grains?

[ShannonM816]

No, not all seeds are grains. Read through the Can I Have list I linked to above, and then if there's a specific type of oil you're not sure about, ask about that. 

[Jim Baunach]

 

7 minutes ago, ShannonM816 said:

No, not all seeds are grains. Read through the Can I Have list I linked to above, and then if there's a specific type of oil you're not sure about, ask about that. 

Which seeds are not grains?  According to Wikipedia "A grain is a small, hard, dry seed", so it seems that all seeds are grains.

[ShannonM816]

3 hours ago, Jim Baunach said:

 

Which seeds are not grains?  According to Wikipedia "A grain is a small, hard, dry seed", so it seems that all seeds are grains.

For whole30 purposes, not all seeds are grains. I tend to read the wikipedia quote as meaning that all grains are seeds, but it doesn't necessarily follow that therefore all seeds are grains. Some seeds that you can have on whole30 include pumpkin, sesame, chia, or sunflower seeds. 

Again, I would direct you to the Can I Have list linked above, and then if you have questions about specific seeds or oils that you want to consume but are unsure of, come back and ask about those particular items.

You may also find this article useful: http://whole9life.com/2013/02/grain-manifesto/

[laura_juggles]

On 12/27/2019 at 6:55 PM, Jim Baunach said:

 

Which seeds are not grains?  According to Wikipedia "A grain is a small, hard, dry seed", so it seems that all seeds are grains.

A slightly more obvious way of telling whether it's a seed or a grain is to think about what that "seed" turns into. If you plant a pumpkin seed, it turns into a pumpkin and a pumpkin is a fruit. Yay! It's okay. If you plant that oat "seed" into the ground, it turns into more oats and oats are not allowed. Whole30 compliant seeds also usually have the added benefit of having the word "seed" in the name. 

Alternately, hijacking an example from geometry - all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. All grains may be seeds (according to Wikipedia, which seems overly broad), but not all seeds are grains. You can have the seeds that do not also fall into the grain category. 

This seems to be a better explanation of which foods are considered grains. https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/grain/

[Jim Baunach]

On 12/27/2019 at 7:48 PM, ShannonM816 said:

doesn't necessarily follow that therefore all seeds are grains

So how can you tell if a seed is a grain?

[Jim Baunach]

3 hours ago, laura_juggles said:

On 12/27/2019 at 3:55 PM, Jim Baunach said:

 

Which seeds are not grains?  According to Wikipedia "A grain is a small, hard, dry seed", so it seems that all seeds are grains.

A slightly more obvious way of telling whether it's a seed or a grain is to think about what that "seed" turns into

Thanks.  That makes sense.  Based on that, canola oil is compliant with the rules because it comes from the canola seed, which turns into the flowering canola plant (which is not a grain, but a vegatable).

[laura_juggles]

2 hours ago, Jim Baunach said:

Thanks.  That makes sense.  Based on that, canola oil is compliant with the rules because it comes from the canola seed, which turns into the flowering canola plant (which is not a grain, but a vegatable).

Canola is specifically addressed on the "Can I Have" page. Vegetable oils aren't great choices for fats. It's discussed in the "It Starts With Food" book, which I'm feeling like you should read since it seems like you're basically continuing to ask us the same questions with slightly different words so that you can catch us if someone makes a typo. 

Canola is allowed when you're eating outside the home (also addressed in the "Can I Have" page and "It Starts With Food") because, while it's not a good choice, it's a predominant oil used in the food service industry and technically compliant. There are plenty of foods that are "technically compliant" but not good choices for your Whole30.

[Jim Baunach]

@laura_juggles If canola oil is "not a good choice" then why not just make it against the rules?  So as long as I eat outside the home all the time then I can have canola oil all the time?

[laura_juggles]

1 minute ago, Jim Baunach said:

@laura_juggles If canola oil is "not a good choice" then why not just make it against the rules?  So as long as I eat outside the home all the time then I can have canola oil all the time?

It's become clear to me that you are simply here to troll the forum rather than because you're actually seeking information or assistance with planning your Whole30. 

Good luck to you. 

[Jim Baunach]

@laura_juggles What do you mean by troll?  That sounds really negative.  I am planning my Whole30.  I'm trying to do meal prep, but need to know what I can include and can't include and thought that's what this forum is for.  Just want to make good tasting meals and be able to stick with it and need to understand the rules to do so.  I usually just count calories, but I heard of Whole30 and thought it might be a good alternative.

 

[Jim Baunach]

On 12/27/2019 at 7:48 PM, ShannonM816 said:

it doesn't necessarily follow that therefore all seeds are grains

@ShannonM816 so how can you tell if a seed is a grain?

[Jihanna]

laura_juggles already answered, and you even said that it made sense, so there's really no point to continue pushing the mod for an additional explanation of how to determine which seeds are allowed.

The rules are complete, in that they provide a guideline with some items very clearly in the YES and NO columns while others are left in the MAYBE column. This allows each individual to make choices for a truly personalized experience. It gives some wriggle room, so to speak, if one's situation is less than optimal (making it more difficult to follow every recommendation fully). You don't have to eat everything from the YES column, and you're able to choose whether or not to have the MAYBE items that are technically allowed but not necessarily recommended because they're known to cause issues for some people.

If you truly want to plan a Whole30 and determine what you should avoid and how to manage it all, you really should take the time to read one of the books and/or at least become familiar with the official Can I Have? list that Shannon linked earlier in the thread.

It honestly isn't as difficult as you seem to be seeing it. Check what's compliant and avoid what's not compliant, and follow as many of the recommendations as possible. It really is that easy.

For oils, what worked best for me was to have 3 on hand constantly. I used olive oil for roasting, coconut oil for basically anything else cooking-wise, and high-oleic sunflower oil for homemade mayo (because I couldn't stomach my olive oil mayo and avocado oil wasn't in my budget). I also used lower-quality meats than is suggested in order to make it work with my budget.

Just take a breath and realize that the rules and suggestions are written the way they are in order to give some clear boundaries while allowing you to "fill in the blanks" (as it were) by making adult decisions about your diet.

[Jim Baunach]

13 hours ago, Jihanna said:

laura_juggles already answered, and you even said that it made sense,

@Jihanna  laura_juggles never answered how you can tell if a seed is a grain.  She said how to tell whether it is a seed or grain, which means it is one or the other, but I thought some seeds are grains (both).

Thanks.

Jim

[Jim Baunach]

Are nuts against the Whole30 rules?

Thanks.

Jim

[Jihanna]

All grains are seeds, but not all seeds are grains. Laura told you how to tell if it is a grain or not.
https://onsetworldwide.com/grains-versus-seeds/ -- check that out for another explanation.

You were already answered in another thread regarding nuts, but I'll reiterate that yes nuts are allowed as long as they don't contain ingredients that aren't allowed (and remember that "peanuts" are non-compliant because they're legumes, not nuts).

[Jim Baunach]

@Jihanna laura_juggles never answered how you can tell if a seed is a grain.  She said how to tell whether it is a seed or grain, which means it is one or the other, but I thought some seeds are grains (both).

Thanks.

Jim