Craggy Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I just wondered whether there was any way in which fasting could be compatible with Whole30. Before I go any further, I know that fasting is a very controversial topic, and I'm familiar with arguments and research both for and against it. I don't want to come across as arrogant. I'm just throwing that in there because I don't want to get jumped on by anybody who is strongly against fasting. Also I have read 'It Starts With Food' to the letter. So... to my mind the main problem with fasting + Whole30 is that the Hartwigs have very carefully calculated their plan based on people getting three square meals per day, and the hormonal patterns that would correspond to that. It is challenging enough getting enough calories with the Whole30 as it is, and people don't need any more encouragement to under eat. That said, I have had positive experiences with intermittent fasting before (not prolonged fasts - very important distinction). When I am seriously fasting I'll not eat anything until 5pm (only about one day a week). And quite often I skip breakfast. I find that if I skip breakfast I have really good energy just running on my own body's fat stores until lunch or afternoon. When it comes to exercise, I often fast pre-session and then have a large, protein and carb rich meal straight after (especially after strength training) in order to avoid DOMS and help my muscle tissue. I feel like this has worked well for me in the past, and so I'm a bit sceptical about the Hartwigs' insistence on three meals per day. If you read the section in the book where they discuss it, their attempt to actually justify this advice isn't particularly robust. If I recall, the first reason they gave was just that it was a traditional, familiar idea that people are already used to I was with them on using it to help yourself get over constant snacking and binging. But in light of personal experience and current research, I'm unconvinced that I need to get my nutrition via three meals rather than two, or one. I am strongly against calorie restriction in the context of dieting; particularly when it means eating crap food. However I also think that if your hormones are not out of whack thanks to carbs and sugar, and you are eating nutritious food, then you can actually do quite well riding on your own fat cells (of which I have enough to spare . Unlike a lot of the people doing the Whole30, I do not have any difficulty with getting in enough food. I've been eating gluten free/paleo for a few years, and if anything I'm beginning to think that I'm overdoing it on the (healthy) fat, and need to try gearing more towards ramping up my veg and protein. I'm definitely guilty of using fat to jack up the food reward in my meals, which doesn't exactly fit in with the relationship to food that the Whole30 is aiming for! I've gained rather than lost weight over the last years. So basically I think I need less calories rather than more. I need to make sure I get enough protein and nutrients, sure! But definitely not calories. (This is without me starting on all the health benefits that come from calorie restriction of the right sort.) Sorry if that's information overload. The point at hand is that I'm just starting my Whole30 (Day 4) and its almost certain there will be meals skipped. Particularly when away from home without time to prepare/anything suitable in the shops. I'm just finding it hard to judge whether to continue occasional fasts/skipped meals (ensuring I do attend to good nutrition in the remaining meals), or whether this might wreck the program. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Physibeth Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 The short answer is no - Whole30 and Intermittent Fasting are not compatible. The Whole30 is a program built on restoring normal hormonal rhythms through regular, balanced, well timed meals. We suggest for best results 3 template meals a day about 4-6 hours apart staring within 1 hour of waking. All that said, the template isn't part of the rules, just what we suggest makes for the most successful Whole30 experience. What each individual chooses to do is up to them ultimately. Everyone's body is different for sure and I can't say that IF is bad for everyone, but it is not something we recommend here. If you choose to fast/skipped meals it may not wreck the program for you, but we can't promise your best results possible. The choice is yours but what we ask is that you trust the program for 30 days and give it a fair shake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craggy Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Thankyou Physibeth If additional people have any relevant experience or thoughts, I'd be interested to hear these too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LadyM Posted June 5, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 5, 2014 I guess my question for you is why not do the W30 as recommended for 30 days including the three meals a day and see what happens? Alternatively, why do you want to do a W30 if you don't trust its recommendations? Why not do your own IF thing and call it good? If, as you have suggested, it's because you're not getting the results you'd like, then perhaps my initial question is the better one to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmary Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 The short answer is no - Whole30 and Intermittent Fasting are not compatible. I agree with Physibeth for ALMOST everyone. Let me explain: the whole30 has a set of rules and a set of recommendations. The rules include no weighing, no SWYPO, the list of foods, etc. The recommendations include the meal template and three meals/limitted snacks, etc. Intermittent fasting during the whole30 is not recommended. If you are not at a healthy weight currently, it is really really not recommended. If you are a women, even if you are at a healthy weight it is still not recommended. Let me say it again: Intermittent Fasting is not recommended during the whole30. BUT. If you are a healthy male at the top of your game fitness-wise and you already know Intermittent Fasting works well for you, then go for it. I mean, if all of the above are true I might wonder why you are doing a whole30...and I would certainly recommend trying the whole30 without IF first. But if you are that guy doing a whole30+IF might be exactly right for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craggy Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 I guess my question for you is why not do the W30 as recommended for 30 days including the three meals a day and see what happens? Alternatively, why do you want to do a W30 if you don't trust its recommendations? Why not do your own IF thing and call it good? If, as you have suggested, it's because you're not getting the results you'd like, then perhaps my initial question is the better one to ponder. The reason not to is because of how difficult its going to be for me practically. A lot more time will be required to make three good Whole30 meals a day rather than one or two. I would rather fast than eat nuts and dried fruit when I'm away from home (or whatever other sub optimal options I have available). I have no problem sticking to this in terms of commitment and willpower, but I am under severe time pressure which makes it harder logistically. I think that you are reading into my post in suggesting that I disagree with the Whole30. That's not necessarily true. This is one way of doing things that works, but that doesn't mean its the only way. I am in no way casting doubt on whether the programme works, but that fact alone doesn't suggest that other routes don't also work. In this case I would still be doing the Whole30 if I fasted sometimes (rather than 'my own IF thing'), because I would still be sticking to the rules of the Whole30. The section on meal times is a strong recommendation that is added on top of the list of essentials. I am committed to doing the Whole30, but I think that some aspects of the programme are more convincing and crucial than others. In terms of my prior experiences, that's not a reliable comparison to make in this instance. You'd have to do one Whole30 with fasting and one without. Its not really surprising that I haven't lost weight in the past given the fact that while I was gluten free, I tended to eat too much sugar, alcohol and rewarding (albeit paleo) food, and I had also become gradually less active as my work pressure increased (and probably stress ate more too). So we can't peg that on fasting and meal timing, although I'm certainly willing to experiment with that. To conclude, I want to do the Whole30 because it is a lot healthier than I am currently eating, it will help me establish better habits and relationship with my food, and because I want to learn more about my diet through eliminating more things than gluten. It is not that I don't 'trust' the program, but rather that I think that in some small particulars there are different ways to apply it that could be equally effective, or could vary from person to person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craggy Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 I agree with Physibeth for ALMOST everyone. Let me explain: the whole30 has a set of rules and a set of recommendations. The rules include no weighing, no SWYPO, the list of foods, etc. The recommendations include the meal template and three meals/limitted snacks, etc. Intermittent fasting during the whole30 is not recommended. If you are not at a healthy weight currently, it is really really not recommended. If you are a women, even if you are at a healthy weight it is still not recommended. Let me say it again: Intermittent Fasting is not recommended during the whole30. BUT. If you are a healthy male at the top of your game fitness-wise and you already know Intermittent Fasting works well for you, then go for it. I mean, if all of the above are true I might wonder why you are doing a whole30...and I would certainly recommend trying the whole30 without IF first. But if you are that guy doing a whole30+IF might be exactly right for you. Thanks I have read about the differences between men and women when it comes to fasting. However I also saw research suggesting that the negative effects (in terms of weight gain for women who fast) apply in instances where people have prolonged fasts, rather than very short ones like the sort I do. So I think its a bit of a grey area in terms of the research consensus, and that I can probably only settle it through experimentation. My husband is the kind of guy you mentioned. But I will definitely put such experimentation off until after the Whole30 and do my best to try and fit into the 3 meal idea. I think that occasional skipped meals are practically unavoidable, but I will do what I can to keep them to a minimum. Indeed doing so is part of this kind of experimentation anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirkor Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Whole30 IF'er here. Did my first Whole30 umm 3 years ago or so? Been intermittent fasting longer than that (typically 1p-9p feeding window, with a 24h fast now and then). I don't think the two protocols are mutually exclusive: Whole30 = what you eat, IF = when you eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craggy Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Whole30 IF'er here. Did my first Whole30 umm 3 years ago or so? Been intermittent fasting longer than that (typically 1p-9p feeding window, with a 24h fast now and then). I don't think the two protocols are mutually exclusive: Whole30 = what you eat, IF = when you eat it. Cheers for sharing kirkor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntJane Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Craggy, I'm glad you asked this question, and Kirkor, I'm glad you 'fessed up! I am an IFer too. I have been following the Fast Five method of IF for several years (M-F only, I eat "brunch" on Saturdays and Sundays). I am comfortable with this way of eating, and I do NOT feel comfortable eating during the day, especially breakfast, and especially at work. However, I am following the Whole30 food model (as Kirkor said, in terms of what to eat, not when to eat) in order to improve my health and kick my sugar habit. If not eating three meals a day means I am not actually doing a Whole30, then I might as well just go out and get some ice cream tonight. Just kidding. Sort of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craggy Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 Good to hear that. I finished my Whole30 in June. But I've kept up a lot of the rules as a habit, and am combining that with IF as a long term strategy. Its nice to hear that this approach is working for you guys too. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmary Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 If not eating three meals a day means I am not actually doing a Whole30, then I might as well just go out and get some ice cream tonight. Just kidding. Sort of. Did you read the whole thread? IF is not recommended during the whole30, but it is not prohibited. If you know it works for you and your health and hormones are optimal, fantastic! For most of the population doing whole30 IF would not be a good idea at all, and i have not heard of many women who can handle IF long-term without consequences, but if you can, enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntJane Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I did read the whole thread, missmary. Thanks for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tygrl1l1 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'm feeling guilty because of a crazy busy day I only had one meal today (lunch). I snacked on a slice of turkey and nuts. This is my day 7. I spent the day shopping for all the things I should have bought last week. Came home and didn't have time to cook any of it. Granted I think I've consumed 12 cans of club soda. :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmary Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 tygirl- What you described isn't intermittent fasting, and it isn't a healthy choice. Brush yourself off and prepare the food. Three template meals per day is a strong recommendation: http://whole30.com/downloads/whole30-meal-planning.pdf For most people, following the template is the key to their success on the whole30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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