thoughts before I try again

[bodygeek]

Okay, so I've been lurking through a few of the forums today, planning on starting another whole30 with my twin (my first one went okay, his went great, but he's totally off road and I'm totally addicted to sugar) in a week. But I have some thoughts, and I wanted to put them out there...

As a woman, it's hard not to make this about changing my body. I do not think I have a perfect body, but 15 years ago at age 19, I didn't think so either (and I was pretty much wrong). Part of my struggle with all of the forums and posts is that so much of it is about dissatifaction with one's body - I really do believe that a component of personal happiness (for me, anyway) is total acceptance of my physical form. I'm relatively healthy - former triathlete, current runner/cyclist, occasional insanity or xfit style of training. I garden, I'm outdoors most of the time when I'm not at work, I live in a peaceful environment with outdoor spaces, I have pets, I sleep early and well, and I usually keep stress down. Sometimes I struggle with depression, and sometimes stress does get big and gets to me. These are the things that cause me to engage in negative food behaviors, which leads to a cycle of sugar addiction. Wheat - I can leave that alone, since all the sweet desserts I want are easy to paleo-ify (another interesting thing I've noticed in the paleo community - a lot of focus on paleo treats, but that's a separate topic). Salt and vinegar chips are hard to give up though...

So here I am, planning another whole30 to break the sugar addiction because I want to lose the sugar belly that's developed. While I know intellectually that cutting out sugar will be good for my insulin and digestion, etc., etc., emotionally I'm choosing to do this because I want to look better and thusly feel happier with my body.

And I guess my hesitation on that is why? I try not to make choices based solely on emotion, and this has a lot of logic behind it, so I do it. But why is the tipping point of my choice about how I look? And why do so many people in these forums and across the paleo land focus on body shape? Can we focus on health instead in a real way that's not disguised body image (some do, I know, so don't flame me)? We obviously care about our health and the health of our food - and I so want this to be about health. But I'll get out the tape measure, and step on the scale, and thirty days later, I'll do it again. Just like most of us. Because the visual is so impactful for all of us who have eyesight. And while I keep trying to love myself as I am as I age, reaching that ideal (which is less obtainable due to gravity :-)) still means sculpting and shaping the outside. How often do we see someone across the room and notice how beautiful they are inside (actually, you can see this in people, it's just rare. Too much insecurity in our culture? another topic)? We're biologically programmed to react to external beauty.

So I guess this is just my awareness that the Whole30 for me ends up being about physical visible change. I know it's also good for the inside, and that's why some of this visible shows up. I just wish we did less body bashing as a whole. I want to love my poochy belly, sugar belly or not.

All of that and this: I have a slight binging problem. I'm hesitant to label it a full blown eating disorder, as I don't want to lessen the seriousness for those who struggle fully. But this means that the restriction and limitation and can't have and mustn't do are much more toxic to me emotionally. So Whole30ing as an addictive and passionate (some have said obsessive) person can be troubling, especially on top of the above musings.

Last year, when I read the part of Melissa and Dallas' Whole30 pitch where it says "cancer is hard, drinking your coffee black is not hard" to my BF, he was disgusted at what he called an incredibly judgmental statement. Interestingly enough, since then, the've added a bit about disclaimers around eating disorders and such (I don't remember entirely, as it wasn't my reaction, but his). However, what killed my last attempt at a whole30 was, in fact, cream in my coffee. Raw unpasteurized grass fed cream. The only dairy I want during a whole30. So this time, while it might not be hard for some people, drinking my coffee black is hard, because it sends me into eating disordered thinking. So I'm going to use my raw unpasteurized grass fed cream. And if my sugar cravings stick around because of the insulin reaction to that, I'll reconsider.

Whole30 is an approach, and I very much enjoy this community and the support it offers. I love eating Paleo and using more spices and cooking up a storm. It's totally my thing. But so is loving myself as I am and learning to be with me in all that I am. Let's see if I can combine that.

Thanks for reading, I start on 9/24... with twin, whose blog is over here.

f.

[Tom Denham]

I like a lot of what you have to say, but let's be clear, if you choose to put raw unpasteurized grass fed cream in your coffee, you will not be doing a Whole30. The Whole30 is defined by the Whole9. If you don't follow the rules and guidelines about what is in and out, you are doing your own thing. Your thing might work for you, but it's your thing and not the Whole30.

If doing a Whole30 provokes eating disorder-type behavior for you, you may not be ready to do a Whole30 at this time. You may need to work on your relationship with food in other ways for now.

The Whole30 is not easy, at least not at first. And for some people it is hard. I like to do hard things some of the time, but only when doing the hard thing makes me better. If it burns you up, you shouldn't do it.

[bodygeek]

I must say that I'm quite disappointed in your response, Tom, especially as a moderator. I was expecting support, not disavowal. I stated my truth and indicated that for me, this will be my whole30. Doing a whole30 isn't what provokes eating disordered behavior - please reread my post. The connection of body with food culture is what triggers that issue, as it does for many people. For me, this whole30 isn't about cleaning out all the SAD, as those items aren't in my diet. I eat paleo foods 98% of the time. Good choices regarding sugar - that's my issue. But I've said all that. I've read lots of posts on these forums regarding starting over, slips, and knowing what feels right for your body even in the midst of people's whole30's. If I choose to do a "whole30", then I "slip", there are lots of negative emotions, judgments, and experiences that follow. Instead, in an effort to live in self acceptance and joy, I'm choosing to label this as fits me. I choose to call this my whole30. And as I plan to preemptively mention my potential cream consumption in the same sentence when discussing it, I shan't sully the good name. But it's still a whole30 in my book. And I haven't even started. So who knows if I'll have cream? But if telling myself that if I do I'm still okay is what gets me to start it and follow through, then show a little love. Because I'm changing my life for the better, whether it's the way anyone else would do it or not.

With much life and love,

f.

[Susan W]

I must say that I'm quite disappointed in your response, Tom, especially as a moderator. I was expecting support, not disavowal. I stated my truth and indicated that for me, this will be my whole30. Doing a whole30 isn't what provokes eating disordered behavior - please reread my post. The connection of body with food culture is what triggers that issue, as it does for many people. For me, this whole30 isn't about cleaning out all the SAD, as those items aren't in my diet. I eat paleo foods 98% of the time. Good choices regarding sugar - that's my issue. But I've said all that. I've read lots of posts on these forums regarding starting over, slips, and knowing what feels right for your body even in the midst of people's whole30's. If I choose to do a "whole30", then I "slip", there are lots of negative emotions, judgments, and experiences that follow. Instead, in an effort to live in self acceptance and joy, I'm choosing to label this as fits me. I choose to call this my whole30. And as I plan to preemptively mention my potential cream consumption in the same sentence when discussing it, I shan't sully the good name. But it's still a whole30 in my book. And I haven't even started. So who knows if I'll have cream? But if telling myself that if I do I'm still okay is what gets me to start it and follow through, then show a little love. Because I'm changing my life for the better, whether it's the way anyone else would do it or not.

With much life and love,

f.

I have to admit that I only skimmed all 3 posts, but my question to you is why do you think that the main motivator of most people is to fix what is wrong with their body?? This is what you said: " Part of my struggle with all of the forums and posts is that so much of it is about dissatifaction with one's body". I so disagree with you. Maybe some would like to lose weight, but this plan is VERY clear that it's not the main objective and shouldn't be. If you don't like this plan, then go do something else. That sounds harsh even in my own ears, but you sound incredibly harsh and combative.

Why do you have such a problem with what Tom said? He's right on. Whole30 is more than simply grass fed beef and pastured chickens. Take what you want from the plan and make it your own, but don't be combative with those who choose to follow the plan as written.

If you choose to only "sort" of do Whole30, then do that. Good for you. Why bash the plan? Or the moderators? It's your choice and everyone here wishes you well. (I just happen to be the one still up and your posts really irritated me)

[bodygeek]

Hmmm..

[bodygeek]

Ah, I just realized my investment in this discussion is because I don't feel heard. I wanted the bigger picture of food culture and body image to be the focus, not the cream part. The "I might screw up so I'm gonna try a new way to think of it" is maybe being interpreted as "I'm flouting the rules so there". Or whatever. Mostly on that part, I just want ya'll to hear me say "I'm trying and I'll do the best I can, so here's what I'm working with and can you support me in it." Which is what triggered me, not feeling heard or supported. Interesting. Anyway, whole30 here I come...!

[jrustdc]

I get what you are saying and support you.

[jhmomi]

Ah, I just realized my investment in this discussion is because I don't feel heard. I wanted the bigger picture of food culture and body image to be the focus, not the cream part. The "I might screw up so I'm gonna try a new way to think of it" is maybe being interpreted as "I'm flaunting the rules so there". Or whatever. Mostly on that part, I just want ya'll to hear me say "I'm trying and I'll do the best I can, so here's what I'm working with and can you support me in it." Which is what triggered me, not feeling heard or supported. Interesting. Anyway, whole30 here I come...!

You can absolutely ride your own bike on this forum and get support. Many of us are doing just that with "bike" logs in the Off-Track/Staying on Track section of the forum. To keep any newbies or others that are actually doing a true Whole30 from getting confused about our off-road choices, we do not have logs in the "Your Whole30 Log" section of the forum.

As for Tom's post, he was very professional with his response. This forum has excellent moderators. He did understand what you are trying to do and many of the reasons for your choices, but he was correct to say that your plan to include cream means it's not a Whole30. The Whole30 is very strict and specific. Any off-road choices that members make to alter the actual Whole30 plan means you are riding your own bike and not following the Whole30 that Melissa and Dallas developed.

Good luck to you as you ride your own bike. The most important thing is that you do what you need to do to improve your health. In the end that's what is really matters.

[Emily]

The Whole30 is a specific program, created by Dallas and Melissa Hartwig, with specific rules. No dairy is one of the specific rules.

As jhmomi said, you can definitely ride your own bike. If you find that your body is okay with cream in your coffee than that is a great thing for you to know. It just isn't a Whole30.

If you are at the point of riding your own bike, that is awesome! Many of us are still working to get to that point and it is an inspiration to hear from someone who is aware of their own body's needs and reactions and is able to eat accordingly. Good luck and keep on!

[kew]

bodygeek -- I posted a 'ride my own bike' type comment earlier today and got a very similar response from Tom suggesting that what I had in mind would be fine, but that it would not be a Whole30. I was pretty upset by that and had a much stronger reaction than was probably sensible.

With some time to reflect, I think that as a moderator, Tom was just doing his job, and the point about not confusing the newbies makes sense to me. And for me, at least, it was a bit of a wake-up call, or reminder, about how much I still need external validation, and how thin-skinned I am. That's a bit sobering.

Even so, I had and have a bit of a reaction against the "my way or the highway" tone of the response: you can't claim this name unless you do it 100% perfectly. To me, I have a bit of a knee-jerk thing against what I see as an attempt to maintain 'brand purity.' And I feel like I want a bit more of the accommodation that I find in, say, Crossfit, where everyone is killing him/herself at the limit of their abilities, so modifications are rampant. At the same time, if I take the idea of the N=1 scientific self-experiment seriously, then I know that a lax experimental protocol means there is no meaningful experiment.

Then again, it appears to me from my one month of hanging out here that the moderators seem to observe a difference between an intention to follow different rules that are not Whole30 and an accident. Moderators have not insisted that someone consider their Whole30 a failure if they accidentally have a mouthful of something they shouldn't, or if they don't meet their goals on the worksheet, or whatever. There, I have seen a range of reactions, and a lot of it has to do with what the person's own head says: do _you_ think you should restart? In that sense, I think the plan and the community are quite humane: strict about intentions, but realistic about slip-ups and accidents. Just my two cents.

[A few hours later in the day, I realized that one advantage of doing the Whole30 as prescribed is that it removes some decisions that I find fraught. "Decision overload" or "decision fatigue" is a concept I have run into in various places in the last week or so, and it has prompted me to organize my clothes for work in a cycle, so if it's Monday, I know what I'm wearing without thinking. By the same token, "I don't eat that" has saved me from lots of agonizing over whether "I can afford to eat this if I don't eat that," something I used to do all the time.]

Anyway, all of this is to say that I hear you. I don't have anything constructive to add about your specific dilemma with regard to the cream in the coffee issue OR your more important original point about body issues and/vs health as motivators. I can say that I am doing this primarily because of my body issues and secondarily because of my disordered relationship to food. For me, the body stuff is clearly a much stronger motivator than health, sadly. I would like to think that my melasma will clear up, my libido will revive, my depression/anxiety will evaporate, and my allergies/chronic congestion will vanish. But I would take a pill to be cured of any or all of them, rather than do this. And that's sort of sad, not least because I think it means I have accepted a somewhat low standard of good health.

A last thought: One thing that has helped me so far on the body image thing is the recognition that I still didn't like my body when it was leaner or just altogether smaller. I don't think I have liked my body since I was about 11. And so I have come to suspect that body-acceptance and body-love will not magically arrive when I reach some threshold, be it a # on the scale, or a dress size, or whatever. Instead, it's something I have to practice before it is true, in order to make it true.

Anyway, good luck with your journey, whether it's Whole30Rx, or your Whole30.

[Emily]

A last thought: One thing that has helped me so far on the body image thing is the recognition that I still didn't like my body when it was leaner or just altogether smaller. I don't think I have liked my body since I was about 11. And so I have come to suspect that body-acceptance and body-love will not magically arrive when I reach some threshold, be it a # on the scale, or a dress size, or whatever. Instead, it's something I have to practice before it is true, in order to make it true.

[A few hours later in the day, I realized that one advantage of doing the Whole30 as prescribed is that it removes some decisions that I find fraught. "Decision overload" or "decision fatigue" is a concept I have run into in various places in the last week or so, and it has prompted me to organize my clothes for work in a cycle, so if it's Monday, I know what I'm wearing without thinking. By the same token, "I don't eat that" has saved me from lots of agonizing over whether "I can afford to eat this if I don't eat that," something I used to do all the time.]

These are both great points! Thank you.

[Tom Denham]

... I was expecting support, not disavowal..

Working out these things through the internet is more difficult than in real life. There is a "give and take" and "back and forth" in real life that is hard to achieve on the internet.

You have expressed your disappointment with me very decently. And brought out some important things about culture, focusing on one's issues, body image, etc that make this a valuable topic/thread.

I failed to hear your call for support. My wife notices that about me too. I'm more of an educator and policeman than encourager. I'm sorry I did not offer more encouragement while I objected to some of your plans. I doubt that would have made my objections any easier, but support is an important purpose of this forum.

[Tom Denham]

A last thought: One thing that has helped me so far on the body image thing is the recognition that I still didn't like my body when it was leaner or just altogether smaller. I don't think I have liked my body since I was about 11. And so I have come to suspect that body-acceptance and body-love will not magically arrive when I reach some threshold, be it a # on the scale, or a dress size, or whatever. Instead, it's something I have to practice before it is true, in order to make it true.

I believe that achieving body-related goals is unlikely to yield success in feeling good about our bodies. The self-judgment of many "beautiful" people is often as bad as anyone else. One of the things I discovered when I was a psychotherapist is that many successful, beautiful people worry and second-guess and doubt and struggle as much as anyone. Obviously they pull things together and perform at high levels, but the striking thing I saw was that outward success does not routinely correlate with inward peace. We really have to learn to accept our bodies the way they are to be able to like our bodies. Making them pretty will not do the job.

Our culture is obsessed with six-pack abs. I had them when I was 17 because my metabolism ran so fast I couldn't get any meat on my bones. But I'm 55 now and six-pack abs are unnatural on people my age. And this is a cultural thing. I was watching YouTube videos of my yoga teacher's yoga teacher - BKS Iyengar. I found videos of him going back to the 40s through recent years (he is in his 90s now). His belly in lots of the videos is "noticeable." He can twist and turn his body and hold positions that are incredible. His levels of fitness is phenomenal, but he has a belly that looks a lot like mine. I mentioned that to my yoga teacher and she said, "Mr. Iyengar represents a culture with different values than ours." It seems to me, a much healthier culture in regards to the body.

[bodygeek]

Okay, after pondering for a day or so, and reading all of your posts (and feeling both heard and supported, thank you!), I understand the need to refrain from calling what I was planning a Whole30. I still have questions about the judgment and the guilt that accompany slips, and wonder how to work more effectively on lessening that while still maintaining the integrity of the whole30 concept.

What I've decided is that I will go ahead then and do a whole9 sanctioned full on whole30. Partly because I don't know what else to call it and without the support in these forums (keeping my log, etc), without the structure of the plan, the accountability would be missing for me - and I can talk myself into a teaspoon full of honey pretty easily.

So I'll give up coffee and finally use some of the copious amounts of tea that I have... Not really that big of a deal for me, and then cream won't be an issue... the other stuff, though, that's still on my mind.

Because I'm still doing this to lose the belly... yeah, there will be other benefits, I know from my last whole3021. I'll have more energy, I'll be able to complete my ten mile runs unfueled, and I'll feel well rested more than not. But my inspiration for this is still all about how my spare tire has been pooching out over my jeans again, and how my BF isn't really interested in sex, and how blah blah blah blah...

Body in the external sense. Hmmm.

Thanks, all,

f.

[Aberrantatavia]

Body geek, on the topic of giving up coffee, I did this for my first whole 30, as I wasn't sure I could do the lack of cream. I found that I could tolerate coconut milk in my coffee after awhile, but just not having coffee at all is probably better for my overall emotional health in regard to eating. And I'm a hard core coffee person... Never thought I could manage without it.

I also started a mini whole 30 before my whole 30 and just did one day at a time. Saying to myself "today I won't drink coffee" seemed less difficult.

Best of luck in your journey!

[Susan W]

Okay, after pondering for a day or so, and reading all of your posts (and feeling both heard and supported, thank you!), I understand the need to refrain from calling what I was planning a Whole30. I still have questions about the judgment and the guilt that accompany slips, and wonder how to work more effectively on lessening that while still maintaining the integrity of the whole30 concept.

What I've decided is that I will go ahead then and do a whole9 sanctioned full on whole30. Partly because I don't know what else to call it and without the support in these forums (keeping my log, etc), without the structure of the plan, the accountability would be missing for me - and I can talk myself into a teaspoon full of honey pretty easily.

So I'll give up coffee and finally use some of the copious amounts of tea that I have... Not really that big of a deal for me, and then cream won't be an issue... the other stuff, though, that's still on my mind.

Because I'm still doing this to lose the belly... yeah, there will be other benefits, I know from my last whole3021. I'll have more energy, I'll be able to complete my ten mile runs unfueled, and I'll feel well rested more than not. But my inspiration for this is still all about how my spare tire has been pooching out over my jeans again, and how my BF isn't really interested in sex, and how blah blah blah blah...

Body in the external sense. Hmmm.

Thanks, all,

f.

VERY awesome!

[homerfrizzell]

Good luck, f.!