Guest Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Hi there, I am a whole30er for the past year. I have done 3 whole30s since and been living 99% whole30 for the rest of the time. I have never posted before but I have found the support and information on this forum invaluable. Yesterday I saw on my instagram feed on the "whole30 approved" account that the Whole30 is endorsing something called "collagen peptides". I didn't get any response to my question on instagram so I will post it here since you guys are very responsive and helpful. My question is: Why is "collagen peptides" whole30 since it is not a real whole food? Isn't the advice that we should get the nutrition we need from an actual protein source like meat, fish etc? I refer to this post: Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellybelly Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 It's a supplement that is good for lots of reasons. It's not a replacement food item. Its like taking a vitamin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Thank you for your response. With all due respect I disagree completely. It is a replacement food item. If you (not you specifically, just a figure of speech) feel like your body needs more collagen, just eat more protein, drink your bone broth and eat vegetables. There is nothing in that processed food that you can't get from a good template meal. In addition, this is not how our body works. Any protein is digested into amino acids (included peptides which are in essence two or more amino acids linked in a chain) and then the body synthesises the proteins it needs. If your body does not need more collagen, then the collagen peptides will be used to make any other protein the body needs. Not to mention that any whole food beats supplements (see nutrient synergy). Furthermore, taking vitamin supplements without any good reason has been proven by research to cause more harm than good. Last but not least, with the same mentality, plant based protein powders should be allowed (I don't touch that stuff but a peptide and a protein both turn into amino acids before they can be absorbed), as well as BCAAs (amino acids) and all the other supplement crap the industry is trying to feed us. I thought whole30 was better than that and I can't help but feel a bit disappointed at Mellisa for allowing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slc_melissa Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Looks like you are on track with the bone broth idea. From their http://whole30.com/2016/09/vital-proteins-faq/, (under the collagen primer part) We used to get collagen and these aminos in our diets in the form of bones and broth (eating the whole animal), but in today’s modern world, we’re highly unlikely to consume foods like bone marrow, or boil pasture-raised bones down for broth. The aminos found in collagen aren’t found in significant amounts in the muscle meat we eat or the protein supplements (like whey or BCAAs) we take post-workout. This means that today, we’re not getting a steady or adequate supply of collagen, glycine, or proline in our diets. Seems like allowing it gives people another tool they can choose to use or not to optimize their individual results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators SugarcubeOD Posted October 29, 2016 Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2016 You've been linked to some good information and a link to take you to the FAQ part for this product in the link above. There are a lot of reasons someone might need to use this item. Perhaps they are not able to get high quality bones for broth or only eat poultry or fish. If you don't want to take them, then obviously that's your choice and having them Whole30 Approved doesn't mean they're a must have. But for some people this is an option. I don't think it's disappointing in Melissa at all. The Whole30 team does extensive research into the companies that are Whole30 approved and bring products to that program that are thoughtfully considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Thank you for your responses. I noticed that the post in the link is sponsored by vital proteins. As a scientist and researcher myself, the source of information is as important as the information itself. I took everything I read there with a grain of salt as there are a lot of misinterpretations and self advertisement (kinda like the research on cigarets that concludes that smoking is not linked to cancer which is sponsored by the tobacco companies for instance). In addition, the article does not mention the potential side effects of collagen supplementation (e.g. high calcium levels, constipation, bone pain, fatigue, abnormal heart rhythms, hypersensitivity to allergens or food). The reasons why a person might actually need this are very limited and if so they will be better off consulting a doctor or a functional practitioner. Collagen is not only found on bone broths but in pretty much all meat, skin, cartilage and, fruits and vegetables help the body produce collagen! The reason I am disappointed is because a lot of people in this community trust Melissa to do the research for them and tell them what they need and what is good for them. For a lot of people, if an authority figure (like Melissa) endorses a product, it translates in their mind as a must/should have. Also, this product does not help change the relationship with food and people's belief that a magic pill/supplement will help change their lives. It also does not explain to me why this is approved and other forms of lactose free proteins or other supplements are not approved. I do not support that there should be more of that in the whole30, but quite the opposite. This product should not be whole30 for the same reasons why all other supplements are not. We need to eat real whole food and ditch the processed food. I thought we all agreed on that one here. I really just try to understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slc_melissa Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 Care to link to some articles about collagen supplementation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 You can have a look here for an easy to understand overview on the evidence on collagen. The strength of the evidence is not as strong as the supplement industry would like us to believe. https://examine.com/supplements/type-ii-collagen/ Also correlation does not mean causation and I am not making this up : http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2903/j.efsa.2011.2291/abstract There are indeed situations where it might be beneficial to supplement with collagen but to the most part I don't think this belongs in people's daily regiment (unless there is a medical need for it and medical supervision). However, most people who find supplementation of collagen beneficial would have the same results from having a bit more protein in their diet (not to mention the placebo effect). Let's not forget the most important thing about how our body works. When we eat any protein (collagen is a type of protein), our stomach needs to brake it down to amino-acids because it can't be used otherwise (to put it simply). Those amino-acids then are recombined by the body to form any type of protein the body needs. Just because you took it in the form of collagen doesn't mean that your body is going to re-construct and use it as a collagen. As for the side effects ,there is plenty of anecdotal evidence online by people who have used such products. If you don't feel like searching you can even look at some of the amazon reviews of this specific product. My problem is that basically that this is Not. Real. Whole. Food. Why is it that the forum and Melissa advocates that post workout protein is not ok (any protein) and it is better to eat lean protein and starch (e.g. chicken fillet and sweet potato) but then this is ok? How is this in the spirit of Whole30 but making a spinach-egg omelet and wrapping veggies is not? (just referring to another post I saw today as an example cause if I mention banana-egg pancakes Melissa will explode). How is thinking that protein which comes in the form of a processed powder is better than a bio pastured stake in the spirit of whole30? Again, I don't use any of those things (not even the banana-egg pancakes) and I am not advocating that we should (although an egg-spinach omelet with veggies inside and rolled up like a sushi roll is ok in my book). So good food is not good enough any more? http://whole30.com/2015/09/good-food-good-enough/ This is what I would like to understand. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slc_melissa Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Thank you for the links. I can't answer your real question and I can see why you are asking it , but I am finding it amusing that in one post you say "the source of information is as important as the information itself" and in another post encourage anecdotal stories in amazon reviews as being a source, a venue I always take with a grain of salt. People with an axe to grind or profits to make are both suspicious to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 @slc_melissa people who are dissatisfied with a product and bother to leave a bad review to not make money if people follow their advice. Also. The amazon comment was your last resort recommendation. I have a feeling that no-one is addressing the elephant in the room. Whole30 is endorsing this because the more people from this community click on the affiliate link and buy the product, the more money whole30 makes. The only moderator comment in this thread is highly misleading. Bone broth in Not your only source of collagen, it is found in all meat, fish skin, bone marrow, skin... did I mention meat & fish? The things we eat three times per day?? @SugarcubeOD chicken and fish are indeed good sources of collagen. So good food, does not bring good enough profits? (Still refer to http://whole30.com/2015/09/good-food-good-enough/) I started off looking for a clarification on Instagram and I am ending up more disappointed and frustrated than ever with Whole30 (@ slc_melissa not referring to you personally, I appreciate your comments and our discussion indeed). Sorry I thought this community was better than that. Still appreciate everything I learned, but will be much more sceptical of everything that comes next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slc_melissa Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Good luck. Hopefully a moderator will still chime in-I don't know how active they tend to be on the forum during weekends, so maybe a timing issue is contributing to slow response. I do think it's important to question and think through options out there, and hope that people think critically about their choices and needs. Thanks for pointing us towards some new info to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators SugarcubeOD Posted October 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2016 Melissa is on book tour and while I will email her and ask her to chime in personally, that might be a while. Your question about collagen peptides has been answered to the best of our ability in that it is a supplement that SHOULD someone want to use it, the company, their ethics, business standpoint and product have been vetted as something that is in keeping with the spirit of the Whole30. Your comment about Melissa not making enough money off of whole food is completely inappropriate and nothing more than inflammatory. The entire program is available FOR FREE on this website. People can access everything they need from templates, rules, recommendations, community support, troubleshooting, manifestos, shopping lists and dozens of other resources for FREE to be more than successful at the program. If you choose not to partake in the Whole30 Approved items because you're offended that The Whole30 gets a small stipend from the partnership, then that's your choice, but do not come here and slander Melissa and her team. The partnership with each Whole30 Approved company is clear and transparent, including the part that involves money changing hands. I did not mislead anyone in my post about some reasons why people may choose to take collagen supplements... You said that people that wanted more collagen should just drink more bone broth and I was giving you a reason why that might not be feasible. If that's feasible for you, then great. Everyone has their context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 @SugarcubeOD Thank you for this, I appreciate getting the reasoning of Mellisa behind this and her take on why good food is not good enough anymore (always referring to this article: http://whole30.com/2015/09/good-food-good-enough/). I off course appreciate everything that Mellisa is doing, I respect and admire her for that immensely. I have bought all her books and when I hook my friends on the whole30 (because they see how it changed my life) I make them buy their own books (all of them) instead of lending them mine because this is the only way we can support the program. I really came here wanting to be convinced that there is a very good reason that this is in the spirit of Whole30 and that this reason has nothing to do with the endorsement income. So far you have not given me that reason which makes me think of the worst. As for why I was so upset with your comments personally: well you are a moderator and I hold your opinion to higher standards than the rest of us whole30es, which means my expectations are higher. I expected you to not misinform people by supporting that fish or chicken are not good sources of collagen and to read my comments more carefully so that you don't misunderstand what I say. Just a matter of expectations, this would not feel upsetting or disappointing to me comping from anyone else. Just to recap what I mean: My comment was the following and you kept only the bone both part ignoring me saying "JUST EAT MORE PROTEIN" On 10/29/2016 at 6:19 PM, Tini said: just eat more protein, drink your bone broth and eat vegetables. There is nothing in that processed food that you can't get from a good template meal. Your response was: On 10/29/2016 at 7:49 PM, SugarcubeOD said: There are a lot of reasons someone might need to use this item. Perhaps they are not able to get high quality bones for broth or only eat poultry or fish. My response to that was: On 10/29/2016 at 10:07 PM, Tini said: Collagen is not only found on bone broths but in pretty much all meat, skin, cartilage and, fruits and vegetables help the body produce collagen! and this: 23 hours ago, Tini said: The only moderator comment in this thread is highly misleading. Bone broth in Not your only source of collagen, it is found in all meat, fish skin, bone marrow, skin... did I mention meat & fish? The things we eat three times per day?? @SugarcubeOD chicken and fish are indeed good sources of collagen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laura_juggles Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 @Tini I'm starting to feel like you're just trying to poke the bear. Melissa and the Whole30 team aren't selling this program on an infomercial for only 10 easy payments of $19.95. Like @SugarcubeOD said, you can get all the information you need to have an awesome Whole30 for free online. You don't have to pay to be able to access this forum. There are Whole30 Approved products that I'm not a huge fan of or that I think are generally unnecessary but that's my personal opinion. No one's forcing you to use collagen peptides during your Whole30 and no one's saying you're doomed to fail if you don't use them. Other products (such as Rx Bars) had previously been Whole30 Approved, but Melissa and the team decided that was actually against the spirit of Whole30 (see http://whole30.com/2015/06/future/). That means that they chose to remove a brand from the "Whole30 Approved" sphere and stop receiving money from that company. That seems like pretty solid proof that they're not making products "Approved" willy-nilly just because they want some extra cash. If it was just about the money, Rx Bars would still be approved. "Just eat more protein" is an option but it isn't always available to everyone. Bone broth is an option but isn't always available. This is just another option available to people. But it's an option, not a requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rohanna Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hmmmm I don't chime in often but I will for this. I don't use Vital Proteins or many other supplements. I try to stick to whole foods as much as possible plus I'm on a pretty strict budget and just don't go for extras. That being said I have to say I completely disagree with the thought that it's all about the money. I mean the Whole30 program is FREE!! She could easily charge just for membership to this website. She has said over and over that she only endorses products she uses and believes in and companies she morally stands behind. I agree with everyone else that this is just an option and we can take it or leave it. She tries to make the rules as black and white as possible but we aren't sheep. I don't follow her blindly. We all need to do what's best for OUR bodies and that's just not the same for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators ladyshanny Posted October 31, 2016 Administrators Share Posted October 31, 2016 From a personal standpoint, without getting into the financial arguement (which is rather offensive, in my opinion), I have eaten a Whole30 diet for almost 3 years. We have protein, veggies and fat at every meal. Enough that we are able to go 4-5 hours between meals comfortably. We eat pre and post workout meals when necessary, consisting of protein and fat and lean protein and starchy veggie. For 8 months (which was the time that the product I purchased lasted), I used hydrolyzed collagen (collagen peptides) in my coffee every day. My hair and skin and nails were never better. My naturally thin, dry, split-prone hair was elastic and shiny, my nails grew faster than I could manicure them, my skin was dewy and glowing (normally very dry and red/itchy). This was a result of adding this supplement to my diet. A supplement that I certainly don't *need* because I can surely feed myself protein and veggies at every meal. But wait.....I was doing that. I couldn't have responsibly eaten any more food. Collagen peptides (or hydrolyzed collagen that the brand I used was called) are processed, yes. So are canned tomatoes, coconut aminos, beef jerky etc. All which are considered whole foods in our environment/culture. We no longer eat nose to tail. We no longer boil hides and drink litres of bone broth or eat offal in the quantities that our bodies need. We eat cuts of muscle meats because that is what is available and most palatable to most people. Collagen supplementation allows folks to get a wider range of nutrients without having to boil a pig's head every other Sunday. It's just a tool, @Tini - one you can choose to use or choose not to use. It's up to you. I hope you take this note as one human being speaking to another about personal experience and thoughts. Don't put it up on a pedestal because I have rights on an internet forum to edit, approve or delete a post. I'm not smarter, wiser or more correct than you. Just a gal with an experience on the subject matter at hand. Take what you will..........leave the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 @laura_juggles @Rohanna @ladyshanny Thank you very much for your responses and I hope you will continue to be part of this conversation until I get it, because I really want to get it! I feel like you don't understand what I am trying to say and also I feel like you feel like I don't understand what you are trying to say. Regarding the financial argument: I do understand why you all got so defensive, you should see me when someone says something bad about Melissa. As I said I do appreciate the program and I do buy all the books anyway (although everything is free online) to show my appreciation and support. My point was (still is) that I don't understand how this fits in the whole30 spirit of the program. This is an honest to God cognitive dissonance that I am trying to cope with and sharing my honest to God frustration with my community in order to make clear what goes through my mind and point out that this is what I do not want to end up believing, was not (still isn't) in my view meant to insult anyone. Apologies if it did, the whole point is: This is NOT what I want to END UP believing. That being said, explaining to me how awesome Melissa and this program are does not help me with my cognitive conflict because that is not my issue, I already know how awesome Melissa and the program are (she is my prrrrrecious in a Gollum voice and I mean that literally). So, thank you in advance for bearing with me and I will explain again why I do not understand how "this is in the spirit of the whole30" (my original and only question) and provide some examples of where my conflicts are: This article http://whole30.com/2015/09/good-food-good-enough/ provides a very good and nuanced overview of why we should focus on good food and the health drawbacks on "overdosing in one macronutrient alone". What makes collagen peptides different? What is different now? (I don't find the article sponsored by the company convincing for the same reasons I don't find the articles on smocking sponsored by the tobacco companies convincing. The fact that Melissa did the research and vetted the company doesn't convince me because I want to have access to that info my self to see it for my self). Any other credible research I am missing? What convinced Melissa? The quote bellow is taken from the aforementioned article and the Melissa's answer just nailed it: "I am a Whole30 veteran and advocate. I know it works. I moderate a Whole30 support group. Heck, I’m even one of the testimonials in your first book. I eat clean and I take good care of myself. So what do I say to people who are coming at me with, “Our food is now so depleted that even if you eat whole foods, you aren’t getting the nutrition you need, which is why you NEED supplements…” and then invariably go on to try and sell me their Isagenix or whatever?" "Improve the quality of your food, doing the best you can with things like pastured/wild-caught/100% grass-fed, organic meat and local, seasonal, organic produce. Eat a wide variety of these healthy, micronutrient-dense foods. Outside of food, work to create a healthy lifestyle, focusing on stress-reduction, outdoor exposure, socialization, and healthy movement. If you’re doing that, we think you’re in pretty darn good shape. However, it may still be a good idea to supplement with the basics; the proven stuff that you know you may not be getting enough, because of a stressful lifestyle, less than perfect food quality while traveling, or just because it makes sense to you. Based on our experience and the scientific literature, we believe many people would benefit from taking high-quality fish oil, vitamin D3, magnesium, and maybe some digestive help, like enzymes or probiotics. These are cost-effective (not pushing real food off your plate), have well documented benefits in the literature, and come with generally very few down sides, if administered reasonably." Why are collagen peptides different??? Where is the "proven stuff" on collagen peptides? How are we not getting enough collagen (and other proteins) from meat, eggs and fish? The Rx example was excellent to make the case that I am trying to make: Just because something has technically compliant ingredients (and we love the company behind it) doesn't mean that it is in the spirit of the whole30. Why are collagen peptides different? (the fact that good meat is expensive doesn't convince me cause these are also expensive. Also good meat comes with tons of other macronutrients that work together to support our health). In the same logic, cocaine can give people a glowing skin but that doesn't mean that it is in the spirit of the whole30 (nor that I would put that in my body. Interesting fact speaking of, it used to be administered as medicine by the doctors!) Post workout protein powder (e.g. egg white protein powder) is not in the spirit of whole30 and I love how Tom Denham (@Tom Denham) makes the case again and again that lean protein and starch are all we need (even for athletes). Why are collagen peptides different? Collagen is after all a protein and one of the most abundant proteins in meat. @ladyshanny thank you for sharing your experience. I am not arguing the fact that this might be beneficial to some people, it very well might be but my brain can not comprehend how this is in the spirit of whole30. Also, (out of subject but pure interest) it might be worth investigating whether your body is missing another vitamin? Our body breaks down protein to amino acids and then reconstructs it to any other protein it needs and there are a lot of vitamins, for instance, vitamin C that play a role in the production of collagen (that's why eating collagen doesn't mean that your body will use collagen). OR maybe investigate whether your body can't break down protein effectively (due to stomach acids or enzyme deficiency for instance)? In any case (again out of subject but pure interest) did your problems come back? Why did you stop using this supplement? My problem is that I don't understand the logic and the science behind it and I need the logic and the science to resolve my cognitive dissonance and I need to resolve my cognitive dissonance because this is truly preventing me from sleeping (I am not even joking here, I lay down and my mind keeps wondering back in this always finding arguments that support Melissa and then the counterargument comes out and right back in my conflict I find me again). Thanks for reading and looking forward to hearing from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laura_juggles Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Maybe you just need to take a step back from the Whole30 culture for a little bit. You can be totally compliant and make progress with food freedom, killing the sugar dragon, etc without engaging in the forum, Instagram, Facebook, whatever. I get it, @Tini. You're science-minded and super invested in the program. That's great. But then it becomes something that's keeping you from sleeping. Over a freaking Instagram post. Instagram. This stress over something that's an option if someone chooses to use it, isn't doing you any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators ladyshanny Posted November 1, 2016 Administrators Share Posted November 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Tini said: @ladyshanny thank you for sharing your experience.did your problems come back? Why did you stop using this supplement? Hi @Tini - when I stopped using it, I did notice a decrease in the quality of my hair, skin and nails, yes. Not immediate but definitely over time. I stopped because I live in Canada and the shipping/duty/crap-charges that are on top of the already high exchange rate to get the product here were prohibitive. I absolutely would have continued if it wasn't break-the-bank priced. Maybe you're right, maybe there is something about my ability to process nutrients that bars my body from doing it absolutely correctly. It would be next to impossible to find that out given standardized medicine in Western culture. And the, again, prohibitive cost here or naturpathic/functional medical practioners. Anyway................this is one of those things that you simply may not understand or agree with. Melissa has been asked to offer some dialogue on it and she has declined because her stance is clearly stated in the articles available. The FAQ and anecdotal evidence are all the answer that is coming. Some further reading from respected community member, Mark Sisson, also advocating for supplementing with collagen: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/10-reasons-to-eat-more-collagen/http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-it-primal-paleo-bread-braggs-liquid-aminos-psyllium-fiber-and-other-foods-scrutinized/#axzz23fV54lHx <--scroll down to find the collagen reference Understand that, financial concerns aside, the overarching belief in this program and on this forum is that collagen peptides/collagen hydrolysate is a healthful supplement that you can take if you want to. There is science for and against everything; sunshine, meat, sleep, fasting. This program chooses to get behind a substance that is beneficial to most people. Also note, if your real issue is with the good food article because it doesn't specifically reference collagen, know that the article was written over a year ago before Vital Proteins had Whole30 compliant products widely available. There would have been no point in referencing collagen along with Vitamin D and magnesium if there was no source of collagen that the masses could get their hands on while still remaining Whole30 compliant. This debate/argument is not going to go on forever, perhaps you want to get to the point where you just agree that you don't agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Yes I will have a look at the links, thank you for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole Lee Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 job well done by the moderators on this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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