Day 18 Still Extreme Fatigue

[nloki]

I'm on day 18 and still experiencing extreme fatigue.  It is worse than when I began the whole 30.  I've reviewed the advice on this forum and found that many people recommended eating more carb dense veggies so I incorporated more sweet potatoes into my diet.  The additional sweet potatoes made no difference in my energy level so I've tried just eating them at night as some on this forum have recommended.  I still am so fatigued and I especially feel the fatigue in my muscles.  Below are a couple sample days of what I've been eating so If anyone has suggestions on what I should do to improve energy levels I would greatly appreciate it. Also I get about 8 hours of sleep a night.

 

Breakfast

3 eggs and handful of spinach

1 cucumber and handful of carrots

 

snack

1 sweet potato

 

Lunch

About 2 cups grass fed ground meat

1 Sautéed zucchini and 1 cup of tomatoes

 

Snack

6oz chicken thighs

 

Dinner

6oz chicken thighs

1 cup sautéed carrots, 1 cup Kale, ½ cup tomato,

1 sweet potato

 

Breakfast

3 eggs and 1 sweet potato

 

Snack

½ cup tomato, 1 cup carrots

 

Lunch

About two cups ground turkey, 1 cup eggplant, 1 cup tomato

 

Dinner

6oz Sauteed Tilapia  

4 cups sautéed broccoli and cauliflower with basil/parsley pesto sauce (no cheese)

[Guest Andria]

Not a moderator, but where is the fat?? Have you read the book or. Looked at the meal planning guidelines on the website? http://whole9life.com/book/ISWF-Meal-Planning-Template.pdf

The meal templates explain how much fat you should add. Also, I believe the moderators recommend adding fat in addition to what you cook with. Also your 3 snacks are not following the meal template. Snacks should be mini meals: protein, fat, veg +/- starchy veg. You want to increase your meals sizes so you can limit the number of "snacks" you have. It's not against the rules to have more than 3 meals,if you need it, (ie long days, workouts) but the ideal is 3 meals. I would try to get down to 4 meals max for the time being and then gradually move to 3 meals.

Sorry, I missed that you had 2 days of meals listed and read all those snacks as if in one day! Anyhow, still need to make them a mini meal or ditch it and make other meals bigger. For example move that sweet potato snack into your breakfast meal instead AND add fat! Avocado, homemade mayo, olives....

[Mom2A&M]

I was wondering why are you having snacks? Are you hungry between meals? Seems like you are low on fat in each meal and your meals should be large enough to last you until your next meal (several hours in between). If you are truly hungry between meals, you can have a mini meal of protein, fat and veggies but then use that information to increase your meal size next time. You are aiming for three meals per day. (Unless you are needing to gain weight or need extra calories you can add a 4th MEAL).

[amberino21]

Do you have a copy of the meal template? Your meals look heavy on the protein and lacking in fats...

http://whole9life.com/book/ISWF-Meal-Planning-Template.pdf

Are you actually hungry between meals? If so, if suggest adding more fats to your meals (go with the upper template limit), lowering the protein to fit the template, and piling on the vegies.

If you still need a snack, go for a mini meal of protein fats and vegies.

Your body is trying to use fat for energy when you eat this way - if you're not giving it enough, it will struggle!

[nloki]

Thank you so much for your feedback. I'm excited to try your suggestions.

[Marj K]

Hi, all. I know this is an old thread, but I have pretty extreme fatigue on day 15. Fatigue was my main reason for doing this and although I saw some bursts of energy early in the day around days 10-12, it stopped. 

1. I'm not sleeping well...for the past 5 or 6 days, I wake up at weird hours...2-3am, 4 or 5am, each night. Perhaps anxiety, not sure. Blahh. 

2. I'm eating TONS of healthy fats (less nuts than earlier in the program), protein and veg. Tons of water (my pee is starting to go clear). I was eating a bit too many dates/dried apricots, so I stopped that a few days ago. Losing weight. I am not depriving my quantities, but I definitely don't feel FULL after meals like I used to.

Example of a day (Pescatarian):

• 2 fried eggs, pile of steamed kale with olive oil, heap of homemade kraut. 
• Big salad with avocado, olive oil and butternut squash tumeric ginger soup.
• Baked white fish with mango chutney over the top, cauliflower rice garlic ghee. 

(I usually do need little snacks (e.g., chestnuts). It used to be habit snacking, but I feel empty a lot and I get nervous that my blood sugar will drop or it actually does). 

I just had a breakfast at about 9am of 3 hard boiled eggs, pile of spinach sauted in olive oil, 6ish sweet potato chips and was not full. Wanted to snack since, but now at 12pm I will start making lunch. NOTE: I don't really exercise. I walk a lot and bike a little, but not every day. I walk up and down stairs a lot though. 

Thanks, everyone!  (tagging moderators: amberino21 & Andria)
Marj

p.s. in the meal template, i assume they mean 1 fat type PER meal, not ALL those different fat types per meal?

[SugarcubeOD]

13 minutes ago, Marj K said:

Hi, all. I know this is an old thread, but I have pretty extreme fatigue on day 15. Fatigue was my main reason for doing this and although I saw some bursts of energy early in the day around days 10-12, it stopped. 

1. I'm not sleeping well...for the past 5 or 6 days, I wake up at weird hours...2-3am, 4 or 5am, each night. Perhaps anxiety, not sure. Blahh. 

2. I'm eating TONS of healthy fats (less nuts than earlier in the program), protein and veg. Tons of water (my pee is starting to go clear). I was eating a bit too many dates/dried apricots, so I stopped that a few days ago. Losing weight. I am not depriving my quantities, but I definitely don't feel FULL after meals like I used to.

Example of a day (Pescatarian):

• 2 fried eggs, pile of steamed kale with olive oil, heap of homemade kraut. 
• Big salad with avocado, olive oil and butternut squash tumeric ginger soup.
• Baked white fish with mango chutney over the top, cauliflower rice garlic ghee. 

(I usually do need little snacks (e.g., chestnuts). It used to be habit snacking, but I feel empty a lot and I get nervous that my blood sugar will drop or it actually does). 

I just had a breakfast at about 9am of 3 hard boiled eggs, pile of spinach sauted in olive oil, 6ish sweet potato chips and was not full. Wanted to snack since, but now at 12pm I will start making lunch. NOTE: I don't really exercise. I walk a lot and bike a little, but not every day. I walk up and down stairs a lot though. 

Thanks, everyone!  (tagging moderators: amberino21 & Andria)
Marj

p.s. in the meal template, i assume they mean 1 fat type PER meal, not ALL those different fat types per meal?

So eggs when they are your sole source of protein are as many as you can hold in one hand without dropping - for most people that's 3-4.

Your lunch has no protein and I suspect that you're not eating enough fat.  In the template you can choose 1-2 of the fat types but we generally recommend not counting the cooking fat because it's often reduced due to splitting between portions and being left in the cooking vessel. 

[Marj K]

Thanks, SugarcubeOD! I didn't get an alert, so am only just seeing this. I'm on Day 17! (proud of myself and have gone down a dress size). 

I'm definitely getting tons of fat...but maybe it's still not enough. I guess I can go back to eating nut butters/nuts more. I regularly have avos and coconut milk (not just in cooking vessel). I usually always have protein--I'm just getting sick of eating so much But I will do it!

Sleep has been better the last two nights--slept heavy for a long time, through the night and wacky dreams. But very spacey when I wake up and now headachy and dragging by 2pm. I will try upping the protein and fats if you think that's it.

--Marj

[SugarcubeOD]

4 hours ago, Marj K said:

Thanks, SugarcubeOD! I didn't get an alert, so am only just seeing this. I'm on Day 17! (proud of myself and have gone down a dress size). 

I'm definitely getting tons of fat...but maybe it's still not enough. I guess I can go back to eating nut butters/nuts more. I regularly have avos and coconut milk (not just in cooking vessel). I usually always have protein--I'm just getting sick of eating so much But I will do it!

Sleep has been better the last two nights--slept heavy for a long time, through the night and wacky dreams. But very spacey when I wake up and now headachy and dragging by 2pm. I will try upping the protein and fats if you think that's it.

--Marj

If you're going to eat more fat, nuts and nut butters aren't the best choice... every other day or so with one meal would be our recommendation... otherwise, olives work, sundried tomato in olive oil, pestos, sauces etc... and home made mayo of course

[Marj K]

SugarcubeOD thanks! ...but to clarify:

 1. Are you saying that avocados and coconuts are considered nuts? (can't unbold this)

2. Why exactly is it not good to eat nuts more regularly?  Everyone says that on the forum, but that's not on the meal template, so I'm confused/resisting that. 

4.. Isn't pesto also considered nut based?

5. If I'm pan frying potatoes etc. in tons of coconut oil or ghee, that really doesn't count?

6. My intuition is telling me I need more protein (vs fat), but for some reason the thought grosses me out.  

7. Still tired, spacey/dizzy and yesterday I felt really crappy (achey, acid reflux, bad sleep apnea last night, etc.) and didn't really have an appetite most of the day. Maybe I'm detoxing. 

Off to start Day 18! Will try to be positive. 

p.s. how do you paste someone's handle in here? I keep copy/pasting, but it turns everything else bold. Thanks!

[GoJo09]

@Marj K - type @ then the person's handle (no space after the @). A list will appear to select from. 

Avocados and coconuts aren't nuts, SugarcubeOD was referring to tree nuts (almonds, cashews, etc). They are recommended to be limited as they can be quite disruptive to the gut, and don't have an ideal fat profile (ratio of omega 3 v. 6, I think...). You're right, it doesn't state on the meal template that they should be limited, and really it should.

Pine nuts are a seed, not a nut (thanks again, English language!), but I don't know why they would be better than other nuts/seeds - perhaps the amount used in pesto isn't high enough to be problematic, especially when balanced with the amount of olive oil in it?

[Marj K]

@GoJo09 Thank you for the tagging tip! and the "nutty" notes...haha. That is helpful.

The funny thing is that I make pesto with other almonds...because pine nuts are pricey, but I'll get those. 

So does this mean that I can have all the SEEDS that I want? I can use much more tahini and stuff. I still have a lot of sesame oil/seeds, pump seeds, sesame seed butter, so not as many tree nuts as you would think. So, again, I don't think it's a lack of fat. 

I feel much better this morning with a huge plate of three eggs and tons of veggies and some fat. I'll try to keep it up with the proteins and veg focus. Open to other ideas, everyone...

Thanks so much!!!

Marj 

 

[ladyshanny]

1 minute ago, Marj K said:

 So does this mean that I can have all the SEEDS that I want?  

No, not really. Nuts and seeds are the same. Limited.

[Marj K]

Thanks, @ladyshanny would you mind reviewing my list of questions above? I know there's a lot, but trying to get clear on my ratios. Thanks! 

[ladyshanny]

3 hours ago, Marj K said:

SugarcubeOD thanks! ...but to clarify:

 1. Are you saying that avocados and coconuts are considered nuts? (can't unbold this)

2. Why exactly is it not good to eat nuts more regularly?  Everyone says that on the forum, but that's not on the meal template, so I'm confused/resisting that. 

Nuts are meant to be limited because they have an unbalanced fatty acid profile. They are high in Omega 6 and because most of North America gets way too much Omega 6 anyway, we don't want folks overdoing nuts. They also tend to be gut-disruptive, a bit hard to stop eating once you start and some of the carbier nuts like cashews etc can sneakily advance sugar cravings.  Nuts/seeds are on the meal template as "up to one closed handful". Although it doesn't say specifically to limit them, you should vary your fat sources anyway and you will feel/do better if you are not overconsuming nuts.

4.. Isn't pesto also considered nut based?

Pesto is an oil and herb based sauce that has some nuts in it. I wouldn't worry too-too much about that.

5. If I'm pan frying potatoes etc. in tons of coconut oil or ghee, that really doesn't count?

Pan frying in fat is fine but the serving in the frypan is often split so right away the tbsp or so of fat that you used is split among portions. If you are frying in "tons" of oil, that's more of a shallow "deep frying" and is not really permitted. Depends on how much fat you're using though. If the food is completely soaked in fat then it would probably count.

6. My intuition is telling me I need more protein (vs fat), but for some reason the thought grosses me out.  

Try different protein sources, hot vs cold, shredded vs sliced, seafoods, canned fishes, meatballs vs patties etc.

7. Still tired, spacey/dizzy and yesterday I felt really crappy (achey, acid reflux, bad sleep apnea last night, etc.) and didn't really have an appetite most of the day. Maybe I'm detoxing. 

Off to start Day 18! Will try to be positive. 

p.s. how do you paste someone's handle in here? I keep copy/pasting, but it turns everything else bold. Thanks!

 

[Marj K]

Thanks! Off to hit Trader Joes for their canned smoked fish and other seafood! Really appreciate everyone's feedback. \

I'm happy that I started cutting back on nuts already...I've been doing more coconut and avos as I mentioned. Although I do eat a lot of chestnuts on the go...they're sweet, so probably not helping cravings...hmm...

[Marj K]

Hi, @ladyshanny. I've been meaning to ask you about this: "that's more of a shallow "deep frying" and is not really permitted." I was using Real Plans the first few weeks and they definitely had pan fried green plantains and sweet potato chips. Are these not in the spirit of W30? It's pan frying, but not sure how deep the oil has to be to be considered "deep." Ha. I'm in the bargaining stage or denial, ain't I?

More details: I put a few big tblspns of coconut oil in the pan and it was coating the bottom of the pan and I would flip them. We're talking 1/8-1/4th inch of oil. They got crispy, but I definitely didn't crave and binge them as I would a commercial bag of anything...mainly b/c they were never that crispy. 

Thoughts? Thanks! 

[SugarcubeOD]

2 hours ago, Marj K said:

Hi, @ladyshanny. I've been meaning to ask you about this: "that's more of a shallow "deep frying" and is not really permitted." I was using Real Plans the first few weeks and they definitely had pan fried green plantains and sweet potato chips. Are these not in the spirit of W30? It's pan frying, but not sure how deep the oil has to be to be considered "deep." Ha. I'm in the bargaining stage or denial, ain't I?

More details: I put a few big tblspns of coconut oil in the pan and it was coating the bottom of the pan and I would flip them. We're talking 1/8-1/4th inch of oil. They got crispy, but I definitely didn't crave and binge them as I would a commercial bag of anything...mainly b/c they were never that crispy. 

Thoughts? Thanks! 

What you did isn't shallow frying... shallow frying is more when the item is still sitting on the bottom of the pan but is at least half or more covered in oil... deep frying of course is when the item is floating in oil...depending on how big your pan is, a few big tablespoons might have been a bit much if a few is three or more... 

[Marj K]

5 minutes ago, SugarcubeOD said:

What you did isn't shallow frying... shallow frying is more when the item is still sitting on the bottom of the pan but is at least half or more covered in oil... deep frying of course is when the item is floating in oil...depending on how big your pan is, a few big tablespoons might have been a bit much if a few is three or more... 

Did you mean to say what I did is shallow frying? Nothing was ever floating. Big pan. Tablespoons practically disappeared. Fat was pretty low. But plaintains definitely get crispy.

"a few" is always 2, as far as I know.  

If Whole30 is going to partner with Real Plans, then it would have been helpful to know there were recipes that were not approved. I have a lot of feedback on RPs, actually. I wasn't too happy with it in the end. 

[SugarcubeOD]

2 minutes ago, Marj K said:

Did you mean to say what I did is shallow frying? Nothing was ever floating. Big pan. Tablespoons practically disappeared. Fat was pretty low. But plaintains definitely get crispy.

If Whole30 is going to partner with Real Plans, then it would have been helpful to know there were recipes that were not approved. I have a lot of feedback on RPs, actually. I wasn't too happy with it in the end. 

No, I meant what you did is not shallow frying because the way you described it sounded like pan frying to me...

I'm sure the Whole30 team would be interested in your feedback on Real Plans - the forum is probably not the best way to communicate that but I would encourage you to send an email to the team... just hit the Contact Us button at the bottom of the page.

I'm not sure there are recipes that are not approved, from what it sounds like, the plantains are fine but as I do not have access to the recipe I can't tell you for sure - it would be very uncommon for a Whole30 partnership to not be closely  monitored by the Whole30 team to ensure that they have confidence in the product partnership on an ongoing basis.

[Marj K]

I'll definitely share feedback, but of course not here. Meanwhile...I thought PAN frying was fine, but just not deep frying. I'm on day 23 and I was going with Melissa saying pan frying was ok and making your own oven fries or chips was ok (occasionally). 

Tostones are a big RP recipe. They are "twice fried." Here's the recipe if you can open it. There are also potato latkes and other fritters. I didn't really make those, but I was going to. Are you saying non of these are compliant? 

If not as tostones, how do people cook plantains? 

Also, what are the rules about frying really about? Emotional eating and snacking? 

I'd really appreciate the input. I'm feeling frustrated today (kinda the first day that I have).

Thanks, Marj

 

 

[SugarcubeOD]

Pan frying IS fine and tostones are fine... I was just answering your question about what shallow frying was... it sounds like you pan fried so you're good to go... @ladyshanny was just mentioning that because of your comment of 'loads' of oil... it sounds like it wasn't really 'loads' so much as a decent amount to fascilitate panfrying the plantains... totally fine.  Potato latkes are basically like shredded hashbrowns smushed together with a touch of egg to hold them together (usually)... also okay altho not recommended to be a daily thing.

The rule about no deep frying/shallow frying is because there are very few things you're going to eat that are deep fried that are going to be a healthy item...not to mention the act of deep frying itself is not healthy as it uses usually a vegetable oil heated to extremely high heat.  Panfrying, like what you would do to make a fried egg or sauteeing of veggies in oil is totally okay.

I can feel your frustration - it happens   

[Marj K]

Thanks, @SugarcubeOD! I feel better now. Thanks to @ladyshanny also (it won't let me tag her). Have a great day!