Fruit v veggies

[RLW]

Cutting down on fresh fruit has been the biggest challenge for me, partly because I don't really understand why it's okay to eat unlimited starchy veg but not low/non-sweet fruit. I understand why I shouldn't eat four bananas, but I don't buy into the idea that local ripe raw berries are less healthy than canned veg.

 

Also, I am not clear about what happens if I cut out fruit altogether for awhile. I presume that that would mean my body goes into fat burning mode--but then when I reintroduce fruit will it revert to carb burning mode?

 

I did read the book, but either these issues weren't fully addressed or I glossed them over.

[GFChris]

In general, while fruits are nutrient-dense and yummy, they are not as nutritious as vegetables.  This is comparing fresh vegetables to fresh fruit.

One potential issue with fruit consumption is that because of the natural sweetness of the fruit, fruit might promote an unhealthy psychological response, especially for those battling their sugar dragons. 

If you have certain fruit in season in abundance, it's ok to have more than the 1-2 daily servings.  Just don't go crazy with it, still enjoy it as part of or immediately after your meal, and don't let fruit push the 1-3 cups of veggies per meal off your plate.

EDIT: If you choose to not eat fruit, you are hopefully still getting carbs from carb-dense vegetables like sweet potato, winter squash, beets, carrots, jicama, plantains, rutabaga and parsnips.  Whole30 is not low carb.  You become fat-adapted by eating the right fats when following the Whole30 meal template of 1-2 palms of protein, 1-3 cups of veggies and the appropriate amount of compliant fat at every meal.

[Tom Denham]

The nutrition density scores that Whole Foods Markets publish is a helpful way to understand why the Whole30 emphasizes vegetables in place of fruit. Whole Foods lists an ANDI score of 1000 for kale, collards, chard, etc., but the highest ranking fruit - which I think is raspberries - has a score of only about 200. So bite for bite, you get way more nutrition from veggies than you do from the best fruits. 

 

I dismissed Dallas and Melissa Hartwig as silly in the way they consistently pushed veggies over fruit when I first met them, but when I started looking at the ANDI scores, I finally got it. 

[RLW]

The nutrition density scores that Whole Foods Markets publish is a helpful way to understand why the Whole30 emphasizes vegetables in place of fruit. Whole Foods lists an ANDI score of 1000 for kale, collards, chard, etc., but the highest ranking fruit - which I think is raspberries - has a score of only about 200. So bite for bite, you get way more nutrition from veggies than you do from the best fruits. 

 

I dismissed Dallas and Melissa Hartwig as silly in the way they consistently pushed veggies over fruit when I first met them, but when I started looking at the ANDI scores, I finally got it. 

 

Interesting, I hadn't seen those before. But meat and fish score in the 20s-40s!

[misshannah]

Interesting, I hadn't seen those before. But meat and fish score in the 20s-40s!

I think that's because ANDI scores are measuring micronutrients including vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, antioxidents. Animal flesh is nutrient-dense, but that nutrient is a macronutrient: protein. 

 

If I'm wrong, hopefully a moderator will be along to correct me! 

[Physibeth]

I think that's because ANDI scores are measuring micronutrients including vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, antioxidents. Animal flesh is nutrient-dense, but that nutrient is a macronutrient: protein. 

 

If I'm wrong, hopefully a moderator will be along to correct me! 

 

Meat and fish also provide nutrients that you can't get from plants. I do believe that is covered in the book as well (it has been a while since I read it). If you are following the meal template you are probably still eating more volume of vegetables than meat anyway.

[Tom Denham]

Interesting, I hadn't seen those before. But meat and fish score in the 20s-40s!

 

I gather that Joel Furhman, inventor of the ANDI scoring system, is a vegetarian or vegan. So you can't take him seriously when he rates kale as scoring 1000 in terms of nutrion and fish as 40. It is one thing to rank vegetables and fruits against one another. His system makes sense there. His bias shows through when he starts comparing veggies to animal protein sources and finding vegetables to be super foods and salmon hardly worthwhile. 

[BossyGoat]

I am a little confused on the...I'm not sure how to say it...the "bad attitude" towards fruit during the Whole 30.  I understand that veggies win hands down on the nutritional side of things but if in the past I regular reached for a latte and chocolate chip cookie to get me through the afternoon and I'm now having and apple with almond butter and a herbal tea and loving it and teaching myself that the apple is just as satisfying, if not more satisfying than the latte and the cookie...how is that off track?

[Carlaccini]

BG - it's not really off track per se - and apple with almond butter is 100% DEFINITELY a better food choice than a cookie.  But are you having this snack out of habit - just because you normally have a snack at this time and you just feel "snacky"- or because you are genuinely hungry?  Breaking our old habits are a big part of a whole 30.

 

Here's an article that addresses  certain demons in disguise.  It doens't discuss the snack issue exactly (more or less dessert in sheeps clothing) but it's kind of a similar concept.

http://whole9life.com/2011/01/dessert-2/

[Alliath]

I don't think the program has a bad attitude toward fruit, or dairy, or grains, or any of the substances it eliminates.

We really want to eat these things, so we want to convince the moderators that they are wrong and these things should be included, because we want to eat them. We want to point to studies that say how healthy the things we want to eat are, how much calcium dairy has, how much fiber grains have, how many vitamins fruit has, how much protein legumes have! We can find studies for all those things, and we can find studies against all those things, and we can believe whichever study we want to believe.

 

For me, this program isn't about what the science says - it is about the foods the most people have had problems with in this past. I am not a doctor or a scientist. I can be told the results of a study, but I can't read that study and verify it... essentially I am having to rely on what someone else did in an experiment, under conditions I don't know how to identify and language I don't understand. I'm having to believe what someone else is saying about my body. Whole 30 wants me to evaluate how my body reacts to things, and how I personally feel. What the program is saying is, "These are the foods people have had the most problems with. Eliminate them for thirty days and see how you feel. See if you notice any changes in your body, or the way you percieve certain foods. Then reintroduce them and see if you notice any changes. Take all this information and use it to create an eating plan that works the best for you."

 

So if you cut back on fruit for thirty days and notice no changes, that's great! The mods aren't trying to say that anyone, personally, has a problem with fruit or dairy or grains. Remember, we all came here to this program, and registered for these forums of our own free will. The mods and the creators did not seek us out in the grocery, look at our cart, and scream at us for doing it wrong. We chose to try this program and see if our bodies experience any change. If we don't, awesome, we are eating healthy for our personal bodies... but if we do notice changes, we have learned something.  

 

I can find a study to justify anything I want to eat and anything I want to do. This program didn't ask me to do that. It asked me to try something for thirty days, and see if I noticed anything. It didn't scream at me that X Y or Z was making me sick. It said, "Hmm, you came here because obviously you think something isn't working with how you are eating now. Try this, and see if you can identify what that is." That's why I chose this program.

[Tom Denham]

I am a little confused on the...I'm not sure how to say it...the "bad attitude" towards fruit during the Whole 30.  I understand that veggies win hands down on the nutritional side of things but if in the past I regular reached for a latte and chocolate chip cookie to get me through the afternoon and I'm now having and apple with almond butter and a herbal tea and loving it and teaching myself that the apple is just as satisfying, if not more satisfying than the latte and the cookie...how is that off track?

 

We are not asking you to improve your diet. We are asking you to experience life when you are eating as good as possible. Better is not good enough. We want you to experience BEST!

[Robin Strathdee]

For the record, the "program" doesn't discourage fruit at all. In fact, we say that 1-2 servings of fruit per day is reasonable, maybe a little more when a delicious fruit is in season and at it's best. We just encourage you to consume more vegetables than fruit for many of the reasons discussed above.