tulipgirl6 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Just gussied-up marketing trying to create a niche from multiple camps. Wants a search engine-friendly term and will also pull people in who are searching for other related terms. Vegan itself is already a non-starter from anybody's program, but his plan isn't even vegan at all since it allows for eggs, fish, grass-fed beef "as a side dish" ... dude seems like a professional bet-hedger. (full disclosure: I disagree with the existence of the Vegetarian Whole30 as well) I am very intrigued by the "whole30 ketogenic style." Can you expand on it? All the ketogenic style eaters I've met follow a less than 20g carbs rule which does not leave room for heaping plates of vegetables. They preach ketosis through fats and proteins...... So, what's in your typical meals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCLaymon Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Higs and Meadow - I am currently making BONE BROTH!!! Once I saw the price list Meadow posted, I knew I had gold mine in my freezer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I'm posting a few of Kirkor's recent greatest hits because of reintro questions. Posted by kirkor on 29 January 2015 - 09:47 AM Well, the good news is it's only a Whole30 not a WholeLife. In theory you might choose to take some of the habits with you going forward. But, the reintro phase is an important part of the program. It takes 10 days to do it right, since you introduce some of the non-compliant foods on individual days, separated by days where you're back to 100% W30. In this case you'd add peanut butter (legumes) back in on one day, but only on the apple, not toast, since toast (gluten) will get reintro'd on a separate day all by itself. If you reintro an item and get a gurgly stomach, or feel like your blood is racing, or have a weird mood, or have trouble sleeping, or get itchy skin, or anything, you'll know you've had a reaction to that specific food group. At that point, you have to decide how important that food is in your life. Now, since W30 had you cut it out for a time, you *know* that that food doesn't agree with your body. If you choose to add it back to your diet, you'll be doing so *consciously* and if you feel any guilt it won't be guilt for breaking W30 rules, but it will be guilt for feeding your body something that you know is not ideal. And this is the same with all of our guilty pleasures even before completing a W30. I don't think anyone thinks M&Ms are healthy. But stuff can be sneaky. Without knowing for sure, it's so easy to allow all things, waving off concerns with the thought of "everything in moderation" ... but with the elimination/reintro of W30, we can see, "oops, guess what, I *shouldn't* have XYZ, even in moderation!" That realization can be super powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Posted by kirkor on 29 January 2015 - 09:36 AM It just seems like you are coming to the Whole30 from a perspective of loss and restriction and pain. And I think the psychological benefits of W30 contribute to a greater sense of liberty in the long run. An apparent contradiction, now that I think about it: "Follow more rules, feel more free". Free from poor health, free from non-nourishing cravings, free from artificial desires and habits exacerbated by lab-created engineered foods. I would encourage you to look at W30 not as a work camp where you get whipped in to shape, but as a spa retreat where you can pamper your body with care and devotion and really give yourself the gift of a healthy digestive system (and "system" in the fullest sense of the word: kitchen, mouth, mind, stomach, blood, hormones, etc., all working in concert). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Posted by kirkor on 29 January 2015 - 09:27 AM The thing that really got me this W30 (#3 for me) is contemplating all the reasons behind eliminating the various things in the first place ... I find myself wondering, if these items are worth eliminating for 30 days, why would we reintro them at all? I realize some thing like white rice are pretty much neutral for humans all'round, but just because someone reintros soy and doesn't have a reaction, doesn't necessarily mean that soy is "good". Kinda like the FDA's category of "GRAS" (Generally regarded as safe) ... MSG falls in that category by the way. So ya, it might not *hurt* you, but is anyone really arguing that it *helps* you? On the fence about alcohol for this same rationale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Posted by kirkor on 28 January 2015 - 10:25 AM >I am afraid to jump on this bandwagon again ... I cannot live a Whole 30 life: it makes no sense for me ... I have lost caution in regards of what I eat ... I don't want to be kept on a leash ... I don't want to be driven by fear that if I off-road I will instantly get punished If you do decide to do a W30 again, it would probably be good to this time concentrate on the psychological aspects of the program more than the physiological ones. It seems you still have a lot of baggage to deal with, and feel like W30 is something you should do rather than something you want to do. Until your motivation is intrinsic rather than extrinsic I think you will still have issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Why food formation is important on a Whole 30....replicating our old favorites is Groundhog Day. Posted by kirkor on 24 January 2015 - 08:53 PM I see it as less what the food looks like and more what it represents. It's similar to why eating trail mix when you're craving a non-compliant snack is discouraged: you're still "feeding the monkey" of your unhealthy neuroassociation. Porridge is often no bueno because the program is trying to change the psychology of breakfast which has for too long been the domain of hastily prepared carb heavy foods (cereals, oats, toast, juice, fruit, pancakes, etc) ... Zoodles/spaghetti squash are different because there's no way they're going to satisfy anyone's craving for a platter of Nonna Vincenzo's finest baked ziti, but they do allow for something to 'soak up the sauce' and provide a novel textural experience that diced veggies can't replicate. SWYPO is about "shoe-horning" old habits into technically-compliant frameworks. In your specific example of the plantain taco shells, I personally would call that a-ok. It's similar to how people make "boats" out of zucchini. If you are a reformed taco fiend who made the plantain sheaths and then closed your eyes and imagined you were enjoying a guilty pleasure from the local Yelp-rated taco truck, then they'd probably be SWYPO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Boom! I finished the Whole 30! Kudos to you for all of the good decisions you've made while traveling and working. You deserve a wonderful vacation in the sun. You inspire us with your long term success. We all have such an interesting journey that brought us together. Thanks for sharing here - it makes us all smarter and stronger! Thank you for sharing with us...how you stay in the groove. I know you believe in pulling what we need from lots of different sources. So do I. You've taught us that it is so worth it to keep breaking our old cycles so that we can all heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminimik Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 My Darling Little Dirty Labs, Dr. Tracy, interesting about the Lab. I've always wanted a chocolate lab (not much dog experience) but I'm afraid (evidently true) I don't have enough time to be a good lab mommy. I keep hoping to find a dog that needs a good home, a little tired like me...but still wants to go and walk the beach. IF YOUR HUSBAND was talking about the sunset on Wednesday, or was it Thursday, the went from pink and grey, to orange and yellow and then lit the sky red? I have never seen a sunset that beautiful in my life. I am just north of LAX and we were dragging people out of their offices and up on the parking decks. I'm so upset that I didn't take a pic. 18 to 24 is such an annoying age. I too think that the whole 30 could be a way of life for the most part. I just have a really hard time feeling "left out of the party" but whomever was talking about their reintro that was amazing....really doing one thing at a time. That is something I've not yet mastered. Perhaps it would help for me to think of a whole 60 with intermittent food testing. I have never made it beyond my food mania and to Meadow's point I probably need a whole 222 to get there. This whole 30 has been different that ones in the past...not as "awe-inspiring". I wonder if it is because I've adopted a lot of the lifestyle as permanent, i.e. no cream & sugar in coffee anymore, only the healthier hot sauce. Only OO in cooking. The first whole 30 where all of the bad fats, milk, nuts and corn left was such an eye-opener for me. I seem to get compulsive with the foods I'm alllowed. In the past I've moved through that phase, but not so much this time, sadly. I'm off to the gym this am and tomorrow am and hopefully get back into that groove. The boss leaves on Tuesday, so I'm planning on a full "Miki" focus for Feb. I plan to buy the kid a car so he's off my list and I will work, go to the gym, frequent local farmer's markets twice a week, get canning jars for homemade bone broth and freeze it and look for a puppy that needs a good home. Dr. T - you are amazing. I have an 18, & 24 year old, their girlfriend, two adopta kids 22 & 24 and they are all self-empowered to some extent. Not a week goes by where I don't think...why am I punishing myself. Hang in there, but protect your family and yourself...SERIOUSLY, you're taking care of her puppy. Meadow - Hope you're doing good. In CA we're pretending to have a winter...water fell out of the sky and everything, very impressive. Higs, I guess we're pretending to be Oregon right now. CC I know you and I have done the OA conversation before...too hard for me. I just don't want to be disappointed in myself and I couldn't be disappointed in ANYONE on these threads. We are all continually working on new and better ways to enhance our health and contribute to others. Not one person on here should ever feel bad. Pat yourself on the back, start over, keep going, be proud of all you are and all you have to give. I am proud of you. MamaMiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I am very intrigued by the "whole30 ketogenic style." Can you expand on it? All the ketogenic style eaters I've met follow a less than 20g carbs rule which does not leave room for heaping plates of vegetables. They preach ketosis through fats and proteins...... So, what's in your typical meals? http://forum.whole9life.com/topic/23540-ketwhole30/ There's Kirkor's log and you can read what he did there in detail. It's at the bottom of every post he makes ...his signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 This whole 30 has been different that ones in the past...not as "awe-inspiring". I wonder if it is because I've adopted a lot of the lifestyle as permanent, i.e. no cream & sugar in coffee anymore, only the healthier hot sauce. It's not what we do some of the time but what we do all of the time that affects us. The Whole 30 is only 30 days but eating three basic meals aday is what 'normal' people do. I see the struggles with answers for what to do after 30 days are over. My biggest take-away is to eat 3 meals aday of 1 - 2 - 3. Proteins, vegetables and fats. It's what CC has so clearly said that she keeps in her cache of knowledge. She uses a tad of intuitive eating, a whopping boatload of compassion for others, a touch of Overeaters Anonymous, and a willingness to keep learning new things every single day. She pulls in everything from the Universe to set her positive intentions....with boundaries for herself. We have to read and study...apply what we've learned going forward. Cruise the backroads of this forum and really dig deep. If you don't have the book, buy one today. Be a student like CC. She's been going places and it's always up, up, UP. That motivates me. Miki - You are awe-inspiring. I came to the realization that the Whole 30 is the Maintenance Plan going forward for myself. I struggled for months with what to do after 30 days. It takes me awhile but it finally dawned on me....the Whole 30 is the Maintenance Plan. Some people use the basic template meal plan for however long they choose. It's what they do most of the time. Some of the time they take a road less traveled. They celebrate birthdays and holidays and keep on living every single day. They don't let an office buffet throw them for a loop. They don't let restaurants derail all of the hard won success. Actually, they don't let food become of the focus of their life. They live and enjoy what 'normal' people have been doing for centuries. They focus on life as a Whole journey and not on the micro minutiae of every single bite they take. Those who did not have any weight to release can go right on living. Those of us that did and still do...can use the 3 meal aday template most of the time and have whatever we want some of the time. That's called a Maintenance Strategy. It may take several or many, many Whole 30's before we can learn to ride our own bike. At that point, our Whole outfit is stylin'. We can identify our triggers that might spark a bunch of secret eating or falling back into bowls of pasta and bread with family and friends. It's going to be different for every single person. If I do what I always did, I'll get what I have always gotten.....a return to Groundhog Day. It's so appropriate that we're coming up on Groundhog Day. The bottom line. We have to work within our own framework. You are learning how to right your ship through the food storms that will come your way for the rest of your life. That's a WIN. When all of you were little kids...until you left home - was food ever the focus of your life? It was not that way for me. I had alot of living to do. I cannot think of a time when food was ever in my thoughts. At some point, working with others and eating on the fly - I picked up some strange food habits. Food took on a sparkle and allure and it started to replace living a life without hunger. A Whole 30 is a food reset but it is also a brain reset. The brain reset is the most positive part of this entire program. It's taken me 8 months and I'm finally returning to life that no longer is consumed with over-restrictions, limitations and food thoughts. I'm reverting back to my childhood and they truly were the good ole days. Life has resumed it's sparkle and allure without hunger. I'm never hungry. I eat 3 meals aday, every day. Some of the times, I will be an active participant with family and friends - eating as the Romans do. It will not be all of the time because that would throw me off my bicycle. I don't like skinned up knees and arms. I've been there and done that. I have my balance back. I'm not going to show off and say, Look Maw, No Hands. As my PawPaw has so wisely told me all of his life....show me someone who starts showing off and I'll show you someone who's going to get hurt in short order. Never show off while riding your bicycle, motorcycle, 4 wheeler or horse. No sireee. Don't show off. Stay humble and alert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Dirty Dancing is appropriate for the WD30 dancers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Happy Saturday, gang - so fun to read up on all your successes! I will try to catch up but I think I'm at least a couple days behind… well, here goes anyway. I did my "Worst Day of the Year" 5k this morning with a buddy. It wasn't the "worst day" at all: it's gorgeous and sunny! Freezing though. Lots of runners were dressed in costumes (we didn't) and there were FAR too many Seahawks costumes of various types. Go figure! Everyone really had fun and it was a nice rolling course with a few little hills. We took it pretty easy and ambled along. CC, we're inspired by your 5k each month plan, and while I don't know if we'll do that many runs, we found an 8k in April to sign up for. It's great to have a running buddy to plan this stuff with. Meadow: my best ever bone broth was a 24 hour batch on the stove. That gel was thick! My last batch was only 9 hours because I got impatient and kept drinking it right off the stove. It still made a nice gel but wasn't nearly as minerally. I only have two quart jars left so I'll probably start another batch next weekend. Bone broth seems to have become a big theme of this Whole30! What was it for our 6/9 group: leeks? I think leeks were the hot item back then. Dr Tracy: OMG! Your post just made me exhausted. Put the teenager and the dog on side-by-side treadmills on a steep incline and have them jog it out! It all sounds very stressful. I've really been wanting another dog but don't have time right now for dog adolescence. Give me a nice 5 or 6 year old (or better) who can amble at a more leisurely pace. My GSD is turning 8 next month and he's becoming the right amount of mellow with just enough exuberance thrown in. What a sweet boy. CC, congrats on Day 30!! Woo hoo! AND the bone broth of course. It IS a gold mine. And so easy. And it makes the house smell really, really good when it simmers on the stove all day. I'm on Day 27 over here, going strong. Pants are a little baggier, but mostly it's my mood and energy that are up up up. Laurie, I'm with you: this group really makes me happy. I love popping in here in the morning and seeing everyone making amazing, sustaining, life-changing decisions. This group is on FIRE! It sounds like MANY of us are planning to carry on after 30 days. Quick roll call, who is on for 30 more? I know many of us have different start dates but that doesn't matter. I count Granny, Tonya, Angie, Nanny, Cottagequeen, DrTracy, Miki? Who else? Anyway, Laurie, what happened to your shoulder? Hope it heals quickly and PT does the trick. I live in fear of shoulder surgery (so, so sorry, Dave) - my partner had rotator cuff surgery a few years ago and it was brutal (his shoulder injury was a bad one). How is Steve? Walkin' up a storm? Tulip: I hope you're finding some equilibrium with fats and proteins. It is awesome that you keep asking questions and experimenting and trying new combos to get that right balance. We are all so different with what our bodies need. If I remember you also exercise a lot, too - is that right? I'd say lots of starchy veggies for you. I made a turnip puree the other day that I was feeling kind of meh about, then last night I finally experimented with adding a little bit of Vietnamese cinnamon on top and it suddenly went from "meh" to DELISH. I recommend it as a new flavor combo! Turnips have become one of my fave veggies. I eat a ton of 'em. I am off to cook up a batch of Wild Boar Stew. Yummmmmm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulipgirl6 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 maybe I just naturally eat low carb? I'm soaking up all the information on brewer's log; I mean is there anything wrong with low carb? and maybe that fits in with the fodmaps thing? I think I will continue eating whole30 ish while reintroducing things. including fodmaps. which i usually don't eat. I forgot to have dairy this morning. I'll cover dairy tomorrow. I eat it sparingly anyway... btw - I think too much abstinence leads to a binge and an inability to moderate. for me anyway. higs: that sounds delicious; I will try to find some vietnamese cinnamon; i love spices! I don't use a lot of sauces but I like to spice things up. I made my soup / or puree starting with mustard seeds popped in oil, onion and garlic, it adds a nice deeper flavor; embarrassingly, I have not been exercising. at all. much. uh oh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higs Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Tulip, I got the Vietnamese cinnamon at Penzey's. I'm not sure how to describe how it's different from "plain ol'" cinnamon, but it is divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulipgirl6 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 There's actually a Penzey's not too too far from here; I have their "Arizona Dreaming" which I use on fish with a tomato stew with okras; has a good kick; It opened recently and I've only been there once but will check in again! thanks for the tip; their spices do have a lot of scent and flavor! It seems like I can't get past the -60 pounds barrier; I did lose a few pounds over the whole30 but I didn't get past that mark; i had gained a few before the new year.... onwards and forward! I have to remind myself that i was unhappy with the way I was eating, because I knew it was not a great long term plan; i'm going to have to re-assess what things I can have while feeling good and feeling full; one at a time, or one group at a time......... whole30 reintro, food sensitivities, and fodmaps...... now, why am I avoiding exercising? what self sabotage is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higs Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 This is perfect boar-cookin' music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cottagequeen Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Have a crock pot of goodies for bone broth going. Would love to do it stove top, but with 3 cats in the house and a gas stove, I don't think it's a good idea to leave it on all night long. I don't think I would sleep very well! Made a yummy chicken curry soup for supper yesterday. Had some left over chicken in the fridge, chunked it up in the pot, cut up some onion, pressed some garlic, julienned some zucchini and yellow squash for noodles. A daub of ghee and a daub of coconut oil, some coconut milk and made a cup of tea using one ginger and one Numi organics savory tea carrot curry bag. poured that in the pot with a dash of salt & pepper and about a tsp of curry powder. Oh, and a Hungarian cherry pepper. It was the bomb! I love to cook, have a hard time following a recipe, Tend to use them as guides. Look at a few for the same thing then throw it together. I think that is one of the great things about doing a whole30. I have to cook for me. I have a bit of a problem with that. Something I am embracing during this whole30. I am important and worth the time to cook good food for. It is important to take care of me... Sadly, since my son left the nest, I haven't taken the effort much to cook delicious meals just for me. The fast food stores were my frienemy, enemy really, but it was just too easy and yet I hated it, often not even tasting the food as I chowed down. Nothing tastes better than a home cooked meal or is as fulfilling as creating one from scratch. Gives one a great feeling of accomplishment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Have a crock pot of goodies for bone broth going. Would love to do it stove top, but with 3 cats in the house and a gas stove, I don't think it's a good idea to leave it on all night long. I don't think I would sleep very well! Made a yummy chicken curry soup for supper yesterday. Had some left over chicken in the fridge, chunked it up in the pot, cut up some onion, pressed some garlic, julienned some zucchini and yellow squash for noodles. A daub of ghee and a daub of coconut oil, some coconut milk and made a cup of tea using one ginger and one Numi organics savory tea carrot curry bag. poured that in the pot with a dash of salt & pepper and about a tsp of curry powder. Oh, and a Hungarian cherry pepper. It was the bomb! I love to cook, have a hard time following a recipe, Tend to use them as guides. Look at a few for the same thing then throw it together. I think that is one of the great things about doing a whole30. I have to cook for me. I have a bit of a problem with that. Something I am embracing during this whole30. I am important and worth the time to cook good food for. It is important to take care of me... Sadly, since my son left the nest, I haven't taken the effort much to cook delicious meals just for me. The fast food stores were my frienemy. enemy really, but it was just to easy and yet I hated it, often not even tasting the food as I chowed down. Nothing tastes better than a home cooked meal or is as fulfilling as creating one from scratch. Gives one a great feeling of accomplishment... Higs - It's hog time all over the world. Our 24 hour BB is the real deal, now. Do you have a special flavor you like? Way to knock it out of the park with your run today. Who's going on? I'm going on. I'll get there when I get there. Cottage Queen - So proud of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higs Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Meadow, I'm not sure what my favorite BB flavor would be. I have such a mishmash of bones in there - beef lamb duck chicken pig. I don't flavor it except for onions carrots celery garlic, a bit of apple cider vinegar and some parsley salt and pepper. That's all it needs! It is perfect! I'm glad so many of us are carrying on too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Higs - exactly what we did. It doesn't need salt or pepper either. I prefer it plain jane. I hope you're going on. When y'all are on board, I really kick my cooking up a few notches. We're having fresh Over the Rainbow Trout and Bone Broth for supper. Greens, purple tatas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drtracyb Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 My Darling Little Dirty Labs, Dr. Tracy, interesting about the Lab. I've always wanted a chocolate lab (not much dog experience) but I'm afraid (evidently true) I don't have enough time to be a good lab mommy. I keep hoping to find a dog that needs a good home, a little tired like me...but still wants to go and walk the beach. IF YOUR HUSBAND was talking about the sunset on Wednesday, or was it Thursday, the went from pink and grey, to orange and yellow and then lit the sky red? I have never seen a sunset that beautiful in my life. I am just north of LAX and we were dragging people out of their offices and up on the parking decks. I'm so upset that I didn't take a pic. 18 to 24 is such an annoying age. I'm off to the gym this am and tomorrow am and hopefully get back into that groove. The boss leaves on Tuesday, so I'm planning on a full "Miki" focus for Feb. I plan to buy the kid a car so he's off my list and I will work, go to the gym, frequent local farmer's markets twice a week, get canning jars for homemade bone broth and freeze it and look for a puppy that needs a good home. Dr. T - you are amazing. I have an 18, & 24 year old, their girlfriend, two adopta kids 22 & 24 and they are all self-empowered to some extent. Not a week goes by where I don't think...why am I punishing myself. Hang in there, but protect your family and yourself...SERIOUSLY, you're taking care of her puppy. Hi Miki - yes, that was the one. He said the same thing, most beautiful sunset he had seen. Our house is in WLA. I wasn't home, unfortunately. Southern California Golden Retriever rescue has some great adult dogs needing fosters or forever homes. I would get an adult dog but want my kids to have the joy of raising their own puppy (not their cousin's!). I love the feedback on the send back to momma girl. She's been on her best behavior today. Today was Day 1 for my February Whole30. Did a bit of a cookup - made chocolate chili and some ghee. Also made some applesauce for the kids. I haven't told you all I drive two hours home from Bakersfield on Saturday mornings to spend four hours with my kids and then turn around and go back to Bakersfield for my Saturday night shift. I do the same on alternating Sundays. Tomorrow I have off but it's my daughter's birthday and they left for LEGOLAND today. I will drive 3-4 hours from Bakersfield to Carlsbad in the morning to join them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeadowLily Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Mother Teresa. Mother Tracy. Both saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higs Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Oh my god. That wild boar stew turned out amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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