thegoldengrahamgirl Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Interesting. VERY eeenteresting. I'm such an all-or-nothing person (surprise, surprise) I was like, "20g total carbs? Forget that!" But I CAN do 50-100g. And I CAN focus on the liquid fats vs. the "eating" fats because I realized the thing that gives them structure is carbs (i.e. coconut butter vs. coconut oil). I CAN drop the protein, as long as the fat is keeping me sated. I wasn't quite sure how to read the post you made in the SDL. I know that you consider keto to be the path to optimal health for you, and you believe that it may also be the path to optimal health for me and others IF I give it a chance. Okay. February. February is the "bonus" month of the Whole9 challenge and I'll give keto an honest try (even without official monitoring) AFTER I get back from Guam. I might need a serious intervention by then, but I doubt it. In the meantime, I'll tinker with no fruits or starchy carbs and limited nuts (macadamia here I come!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 I wasn't quite sure how to read the post you made in the SDL. I know that you consider keto to be the path to optimal health for you, and you believe that it may also be the path to optimal health for me and others IF I give it a chance. I consider Whole 30 to be the path to optimal health. I don't mean back-to-back to back Whole 30's -- or a Whole 365. I mean, following the template structure of protein+veggie+fat. I believe the Whole 30 "way" of eating is the best -- meaning, it would be ideal for us to keep the dairy out. No, I do not believe that we derive any real health benefits from including it. I could go on about each individual thing -- but the point is, everything they exclude, they exclude for a reason. I have no idea if keto is the best path for ANY of you. I think there are an awful lot of factors involved, and it is a very individual experiment. For Karen and Jess -- who both have struggled for years, and who both have some real weight they want to lose -- they both read the book and are sold. Cravings are under control, energy is good, sleep is good, and I am hearing no complaints. For someone like you, who -- from what I have gathered -- is an avid lifter, pushing yourself really hard in the gym 4 times per week (two sets of two back-to-back days with no rest day between)... competitive with the guys, really concerned about strength and being able to "keep up" ... plus running? I don't know. This is why I said you will have to experiment and really find your sweet spot -- see if you can find the best of both worlds, without being in "no man's land". I'm sorry if you didn't understand my other post. I speak from the heart, and I am passionate about most of what I say here. My point is simply that if you focus on what feels good and healthy to you, all around, good things will come. If something doesn't feel right -- it probably isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessRN Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I consider Whole 30 to be the path to optimal health. I have no idea if keto is the best path for ANY of you. I think there are an awful lot of factors involved, and it is a very individual experiment. My point is simply that if you focus on what feels good and healthy to you, all around, good things will come. If something doesn't feel right -- it probably isn't. I could not agree more with Brewer. In fact, I was having this exact conversation TODAY on Facebook with a good friend who posted an article about how nutritional science isn't exact. And that is a statement I don't necessarily disagree with at all. However, I agree with Brewer- as an RN, a scientist at heart and a person eating this way- that the "protein, veggie, FAT" template is absolutely the way to go. For every human. But do I believe that Keto is for everyone? No, not necessarily. Though as a clinician, I cannot really think of too many people that wouldn't benefit from a ketogenic diet. I think beyond the unbendable truths of human metabolism, (lots of carbs equal fat storage, spiking insulin is bad news), what those ratios are depend on the individual person. And for the record, 20g of carbs a day is the recommended starting point for exploring Keto, as Brewer said, for most people the grams per day are less than 100 and likely less than 50 to achieve and maintain ketosis. It appears I can do more than 20g a day and maintain ketosis, but it's definitely less than 50g. And that's just me. Keto appears right for me at this point, and I'm open to it not being right for me at another point (like with pregnancy... I'd probably want to research that a lot more). But listen to your body and let that be your guide. Satiety is a really good indicator. And if weight loss isn't your goal and you are a highly active person, you might be able to get away with the same amount of fat and only slightly less carbs and rock ketosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Well folks, it's time to take my nerdy Star Wars sweatshirt and hit the theater with my mug of coffee stashed in my purse. Yes, my baby is turning NINE tomorrow! I will be taking another complete forum break. I will not be on at all, until they are in bed tomorrow night. ...I will be thinking of you all, though. Great discussions here. Happy Friday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessRN Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Well folks, it's time to take my nerdy Star Wars sweatshirt and hit the theater with my mug of coffee stashed in my purse. You're gonna love it, it's SO MUCH FUN!!!! Happiest of Birthdays to your littlest of boys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessRN Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 And of course, this came out TODAY. http://www.mdanderson.org/newsroom/news-releases/2015/sugar-diets-increases-risk-breast-cancer-tumors-metastasis.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegoldengrahamgirl Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Thanks so much, Jess and Brewer! For the heck of it, I decided to "run the numbers." Either I'm completely forgetting some foods, or I'm actually ingesting fewer calories than I thought. And I know I'm pretty good at guesstimating portion sizes - IIFYM was good for something! Monday: 108P-77C-107F 59% calories from fat (this includes fruit & starchy carb, a.k.a. squash post-workout) Tuesday: 113P-86C-101F 54% calories from fat (this includes fruit & starch carb, a.k.a. squash post-workout) Wednesday: 83P-74C-91F 58% calories from fat (I avoided fruit & starchy carb all day but then ended up with pineapple in my supper). I know I'm missing SOME food from my supper, but I honestly can't think what it was so I threw in 100g of steamed cauliflower for good measure. Thursday: 100P-73C-141F 68% calories from fat (no fruit but I wasn't expecting this to be a "low-carb" day because it included my oatmeal reintro. But lowest all week!). This includes my pistachio raid. The fat is as high as it is because I had three separate servings of coconut cream yesterday (probably the lowest carb "eating" fat). I'm a numbers-fiend. I couldn't help myself. This is all very promising stuff. I won't be giving up on myself and continually tweaking to see what MY optimal path to health is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegoldengrahamgirl Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 P.S. Happy birthday to Brewer Baby Birthday Boy! Enjoy the movie! P.P.S. Those are total carb numbers not net. P.P.P.S. This is lunch: 2 HB eggs with homemade mayo, 1/2 zucchini that I thought was a cucumber when I bought it and 1/2 green bell pepper with 1-2 tbsp olive oil. P.P.P.P.S. I'm glad I don't have to weigh and measure broccoli and cabbage - ain't nobody got time for that either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alisonlcarver Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1/2 zucchini that I thought was a cucumber when I bought it Ok, that's just funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleNotEasy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 In this year's Whole9 challenge (I can't recall if you're in that thread?) we're doing March as our month to focus on sleep. So maybe you can get a boost from that. Hey there kirkor - I'm not on that thread, but maybe I'll join for March to get said potential "boost." Thanks for the heads up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleNotEasy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Thanks so much, Jess and Brewer! For the heck of it, I decided to "run the numbers." Either I'm completely forgetting some foods, or I'm actually ingesting fewer calories than I thought. And I know I'm pretty good at guesstimating portion sizes - IIFYM was good for something! Monday: 108P-77C-107F 59% calories from fat (this includes fruit & starchy carb, a.k.a. squash post-workout) Tuesday: 113P-86C-101F 54% calories from fat (this includes fruit & starch carb, a.k.a. squash post-workout) Wednesday: 83P-74C-91F 58% calories from fat (I avoided fruit & starchy carb all day but then ended up with pineapple in my supper). I know I'm missing SOME food from my supper, but I honestly can't think what it was so I threw in 100g of steamed cauliflower for good measure. Thursday: 100P-73C-141F 68% calories from fat (no fruit but I wasn't expecting this to be a "low-carb" day because it included my oatmeal reintro. But lowest all week!). This includes my pistachio raid. The fat is as high as it is because I had three separate servings of coconut cream yesterday (probably the lowest carb "eating" fat). I'm a numbers-fiend. I couldn't help myself. This is all very promising stuff. I won't be giving up on myself and continually tweaking to see what MY optimal path to health is! Lauren - it will be interesting for you to observe how you feel going forward. Like you said, you could do a month of keto in February and see if it works for you. Maybe try 50g of carbs per day and see whether you feel good there. You are not that far away from getting there based on your numbers above. If I do another keto experiment (I'm still considering my plan for moving forward), I'm going to stay dairy-free. Most non-W30 people who eat keto use a LOT of dairy to boost their fat intake. (Just try goggling low carb recipes and you will see what I mean.) I tried it last summer in July and August and I am pretty sure that dairy in high quantity was part of what set me up for a big depressive episode last fall. Keep us posted! Well folks, it's time to take my nerdy Star Wars sweatshirt and hit the theater with my mug of coffee stashed in my purse. Yes, my baby is turning NINE tomorrow! I will be taking another complete forum break. I will not be on at all, until they are in bed tomorrow night. ...I will be thinking of you all, though. Great discussions here. Happy Friday! Happy ninth birthday to your baby! Hope y'all like the movie! Miss you around here today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleNotEasy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 And of course, this came out TODAY. http://www.mdanderson.org/newsroom/news-releases/2015/sugar-diets-increases-risk-breast-cancer-tumors-metastasis.html Jess - Thanks for posting this! The quote below seems to summarize: The current study investigated the impact of dietary sugar on mammary gland tumor development in multiple mouse models, along with mechanisms that may be involved,” said co-author Lorenzo Cohen, Ph.D., professor of Palliative, Rehabilitation, and Integrative Medicine. “We determined that it was specifically fructose, in table sugar and high-fructose corn syrup, ubiquitous within our food system, which was responsible for facilitating lung metastasis and 12-HETE production in breast tumors.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmlynne Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Happy Birthday Baby Brewer!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegoldengrahamgirl Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Friday: 64P-54C-146F 75% calories from fat. No dairy. I CAN do this. I just have to find out if it's worth it. Right now it feels too restrictive to ME (no fruit, no starchy carbs, worrying about the fact that I had both onion AND cabbage at breakfast) to be sustainable, but I haven't done it long enough to know for sure and the benefits of achieving true ketosis might outweigh the way I am thinking about it right now. Stay tuned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessRN Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Hey guys, a few updates! I spoke with Mark from KETONIX today on the phone, and we went over my issues. He was very supportive, knowledgable about nutritional ketosis himself, and emphasized that even if I bring it back, he wants me to have a good experience with them. Long story short, I'm still not sure I'm going to keep it. I have a day or two to think about it. As you all know, I've been super sick, and I work as a nurse. I have not been to work in EIGHT DAYS, and my first day back is tomorrow. Not all of that was time off, I had four days off starting the first, but I did have to call in sick for two shifts on Tuesday and Wednesday. I don't feel 100% whatsoever, but I'm not likely to be contagious anymore, and need to get my butt back in the saddle. I attached a pic of the breakfast/lunch I packed for tomorrow. Breakfast is two deviled eggs with homemade mayo, 3 pieces of organic, nitrate free bacon, and a cup of broccoli with a healthy topping of ghee and sea salt. You can also see my little container of coconut milk that I use for my tea. Lunch is more chicken salad with homemade mayo, and I threw half a very small avocado in with it. I also have 1/2 a cup of steamed spinach with ghee and sea salt. Other than a couple of sparkling waters, that's what I eat for my entire 14 hour day. Too much? Too little? Just right? Curious for feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Jess, your food looks good to me. 14 hours good? Come back and let us know. I think one of the really kick-ass things about keto is being able to go for long stretches if you need to for some reason, or go, go, go, on less food if you have to. This is what our bodies should be able to do. None of this "emergency Larabar" crap. We store body fat for future use. We store body fat for times of need. Being able to just tap into that ~ instead of feeling shaky, weak, foggy, lightheaded, headachy..... well, all my keto folks here know what I mean. It's not a judgement of Larabar users in any way -- it's just a celebration of how far I've come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Miss you around here today. Thanks to ALL for the birthday wishes, and Sara ~ can't tell you how much I appreciate being missed. I missed you all, too. However, I did not log on -- not once! I took this time to focus on other things. I also did not get 14,000 steps for the day ~ nor did I care. I will make it up this week. Today there was a lot of sitting. We really liked Star Wars. Clearly, there is going to be another one. The big question at the end: Is Luke Skywalker Rey's father? Has to be. Right? Cliffhanger....... on a cliff. Literally a cliffhanger. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 One thing I kept thinking about, that I needed to post about here tonight: DAIRY. That stupid cyst on my face was ~so completely close to being so completely gone~ just 2 days ago. I actually thought to myself, "Hey, I said on my thread that I thought it would never go away completely, but I think this darn thing may actually go away completely!" ...I had the post about it all thought up in my head and everything. Later that night, I went out to dinner with a friend, and I ate the sour cream that came with my fajita stuff. Why, you say? Why would you do that? Well, the guacamole pile was just so small. I needed more fat to go with my chicken. I ate it. Didn't think too much about it. The next night -- my husband was all, "Sooooo... you went and ate Mexican food without me, huh.....?" (Craving. Clearly craving.) So we went to the same place, I ordered the same thing, and I ate the sour cream. Again. Guess what is bothering me today? You guessed it -- the blankety blankety blank blank CYST in my hairline. Folks, this is no coincidence. I have a built in "dairy meter". ON MY FACE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegoldengrahamgirl Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Saturday: 68P-52C-111F 68% calories from fat. I had to "make up" for a 23g carb (13g net carbs) breakfast - can I even do that? I had no idea that onions had so many carbs! Mind you, breakfast also had 40g of fat. I'm hoping the high fat intake would blunt the insulin response of the carbs. I'm guessing that it's not just overall carb intake for the day that matters, but also at each meal. So let's just say I *do* achieve ketosis (I recognize this can take 2-3 or up to 4 weeks). How will I know? What's happening to all of the dietary fat in the meantime? And then once I am, can a single meal "kick me out" of ketosis? And it seems some are adopting only 2 meals per day (I've read that IF is common with keto) - is that necessary/recommended/optimal? I'm still doing 3 meals, and planning on keeping post-WO (protein only) as a minimum. We had flaming Korean beef BBQ - literally three foot flames as they throw some soju (Korean alcohol, rice- or potato-based) into the pan with the beef and blast it with a blow torch, right at the table in front of you. Super cool. Jess, I thought your food looked great. Only YOU can tell for sure if it's going to get YOU through 14 hours. Let us know! Brewer, I'm glad that this forum has saved me from Larabars. At the beginning of my Whole30, I read that they were a compliant emergency food source and bought FOUR different flavours. At 16 bars a box, I've got about 55 of the original 64 left (and my husband has had some, too). Oh well - I'd rather have my husband or son eat a Larabar than any other processed bar. However, I'm still an Epic bar emergency food source girl (or would be, if I could get Epic bars in Korea - I ran out of the stash my coworker kindly brought me from the U.S.). P.S. - Bitter greens (kale or collard greens or crazy Asian cabbage leaves - I'm not even sure exactly WHAT I bought at the market today) sauteed in coconut oil is my new favourite food. YUM! P.P.S. - I finally hit my step goal of 13,000/day today, just with walking back and forth to various markets and parks. I couldn't handle even the thought of running after yesterday's leg day. I was insanely SORE all over - is that part of carb flu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmlynne Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 So let's just say I *do* achieve ketosis (I recognize this can take 2-3 or up to 4 weeks). How will I know? What's happening to all of the dietary fat in the meantime? And then once I am, can a single meal "kick me out" of ketosis? And it seems some are adopting only 2 meals per day (I've read that IF is common with keto) - is that necessary/recommended/optimal? I'm still doing 3 meals, and planning on keeping post-WO (protein only) as a minimum. GGG: I am far from being an expert on keto, but I can speak to "my" experience. I was checking my levels twice a day when I got my ketonix. I found that, for me, if I had a meal or a day, that was particularly high in carbs, my keto level would drop a couple days later. I wouldn't necessarily come "out" of ketosis - and if I had gotten back on track fairly quickly, my levels would bounce back up. As far as the meals per day: when I started, I was eating three per day (as I am now). Back in December, I found that when a meal time rolled around, I just wasn't hungry. So some days, especially at work, I would end up not having my second meal 6 hours or so after my first (often around 3-5pm). Then, I wasn't hungry again until bedtime. As I was trying not to eat as I was heading for bed (this is always a big binge time for me), I ended up eating two meals a day. Wasn't long before it was enough for me. However, if I was truly hungry during the day, I would be back to 3 meals, sometimes even four (maybe due to the increased activity of the step challenge some of us are doing). You have to listen to your badly cues. If you don't feel like you know your cues, have that conversation with yourself: is this hunger? Do I really "need" to eat right now? Would I eat "broccoli and fish"? Am I just bored? What is it that I am really craving? .... Once you start thinking about your food, and changing your mindset to food as fuel instead of entertainment, comfort, timefiller, or a multitude of other things... Well, it helps. Mind you, it has taken me years to get to this point. And I still have to be careful - I have a very bad habit of cutting way back on food when I am "dieting" to lose weight. My friends here help me stay accountable As far as the soreness, I am not certain it is "carb flu". Increase your water intake, do lots of stretching, and continue with light exercise and the soreness will go away much more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegoldengrahamgirl Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Thanks, Karen - that really helps. So ketosis is not an on/off switch - it would just be the volume of ketones I am (or am not) producing. And I understand what you mean about eating when you are truly hungry and not eating if you are not, even if it's "meal time" by the clock. Whole30 really helped me with hunger and satiety cues, and my satiety is even higher now with just a short period of trying out LCHF (not that I'm super low carb yet). Cheers, -Lauren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Our power has been out for a couple of hours now. No idea why. It is actually a pretty nice day -- well, ok, this morning was foggy and it is actually pretty damp & dreary, lol. But no storms... and temperature is good. I don't know what's up. But this means: ~ no treadmill. We did take the dog for a walk around the neighborhood. So I got some steps there. And I played "where's Waldo?" with his poop in the back yard for quite awhile. Not many steps there, but nice workout with the heavy shovel. Not really. It's not a heavy shovel, and it's not big poop. So now I am pacing around and around my dark house, typing on my tiny phone. Because this also means no wi-fi. The only thing that is starting to bother me is that this means no coffee. But I think I will survive. Unless Starbucks has no power, either. Then things might start to get ugly around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 So I meant to say: I have a lot of stuff to respond to... But I will have to do it later. Happy weekend, all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirkor Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 >The only thing that is starting to bother me is that this means no coffee. Do you have a gas range? Could do it pourover style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewer5 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Nope. Electric. We have a gas range in the camping trailer... But I think my husband has everything shut off & disconnected for the "winter". Winter? o_o ^ I think it's coming... Eventually. Glad it's not here today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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