Brewer5: A Fresh Start

[JessRN]

No... you find your fitbit and start walking there to hunt some ducks, right now!  

LMAO!!!!

Health update:  I was up all night coughing.  Fun.

Fitbit update:  I tore this house up.  I think it teleported to another dimension or something.  Maybe it got a visit from the Doctor (So nerdy.  Sorry to all who don't get that reference lol).  

[Brewer5]

Doctor Who?

 

[JessRN]

See, Brewer gets me.  This is why we're friends 

[Brewer5]

So I've heard Dr. Jason Fung speak on someone's podcast awhile ago, and I really liked it.  

 

He talked about how Type 2 diabetes is caused by too much insulin, and because of that -- prescribing insulin to T2 patients is like pouring gasoline on a fire.  Today I heard him use the analogy of giving alcohol to an alcoholic.

 

I listened to an hour-long video of his while on the treadmill today -- this one is a good explanation.  I thought, when he got to the end, that he was going to talk about a ketogenic diet -- but he really zeroed in on fasting.  He is talking to a room full of doctors, specifically about patients who are obese and diabetic.  

 

Anyway, for anyone who is interested -- here is the page:

 

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/category/lectures/type-2-diabetes-lecture-series/

 

I listened to the one at the bottom.

 

What bothered me is the cackling by many of the other doctors in the room.  He is clearly passionate about his work, and very serious about his presentation -- and they were constantly cracking jokes, especially toward the end.  Mention was even made about how they'd all be out of jobs.  Indeed.  What a great glimpse into the minds of some of the medical community.

 

Dr. Fung has a new book coming out in March.  I'm adding it to the very long list in my cart:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Obesity-Code-Unlocking-Secrets-Weight/dp/1771641258/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442855807&sr=1-1&keywords=jason+fung

 

I'm sure it will be a good one.  Jimmy Moore is the first quote I see on the product page.

[JessRN]

So Ketonix got back to me again.  They forwarded my email listing all the problems I've had with the unit and software to the guys in Sweden.  I'm told we can trouble shoot it, and the Ketonix guy on the East coast (his name is Mark), will be calling me tomorrow around noon my time to "discuss issues and walk through the solutions."  If it is actually solved to my satisfaction, I will let you guys know and also share the solutions provided to me.  I guess being home sick writing strongly worded letters pays off occasionally LOL

[kirkor]

Do you know what we found out?  The beautiful state of California will not allow Jess to have any duck fat shipped to her, from anywhere.  What the heck is up with that?  

I think that's just for force-fed ducks, foie gras style.

[Brewer5]

I don't get it.

[Carlaccini]

Don't mind me... I've been lurking in the background. 

 

I don't get it either - but I have heard about Cali and the foie gras ruling here - people apparently think it's cruel to eat duck livers.....and that it's inhumane... 

 

Cali has some "different" rules and regulations sometimes....

 

You can eat duck but not the liver..... I don't get it either.

[Brewer5]

Don't mind me... I've been lurking in the background. 

 

 

I don't mind at all.....  I am glad to hear from you!  

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

^ Hey, looks good to me.  The question really is:  How did you feel after this meal?  Were you satiated for at least 4-5 hours?

 

No.  I had a few tbsp. of coconut cream at 8pm (dinner, as I call my last meal of the day, was around 6:45pm).  More fat, fat, FAT needed!

[Brewer5]

No.  I had a few tbsp. of coconut cream at 8pm (dinner, as I call my last meal of the day, was around 6:45pm).  More fat, fat, FAT needed!

 

Lauren, I have some thoughts re: your big posts over at SDS.  And I will be back later to post those.  (I am only able to pop in here a thousand times a day while standing and walking around my house doing other things.)

 

But for now -- I want you to just consider something.  Coconut cream and pistachios are not PURE fat choices.  You are still getting carbs from those -- and that is all fine and dandy if your goal is not keto -- BUT.  When carbs are higher and fat is higher, you do have the potential to pack on some fat.  

 

The goal with keto is to keep insulin levels very low... so we are not sending the signal to our fat cells to "store".  If you are eating things that ARE raising your insulin level -- opening up those cells for fat storage -- and you are also eating a lot of fat... well, it is more likely to get stored.

 

There is absolutely zero judgement here, I am just stating a fact:  If you are still hungry at the end of a meal (and your goal is keto) -- you would be better off to add a pure fat (spoonful of coconut oil) rather than a few tablespoons of coconut cream (about 9 carbs included with the fat).

 

When I first "went Paleo" -- I did not understand these things....  I just felt so free that calories no longer "mattered" (right   ) and what I was eating was a fairly high-carb AND high-fat Paleo diet.  Guess what?  I gained fat.

 

I think maybe you need to make a choice, because otherwise you are putting yourself in that no-man's land we've talked about.

[JessRN]

Everything Brewer just said.  Times 1,000.  Your meal pic looks a lot like my meal pics... from about a month ago when I thought I was doing the right thing for myself and was only exiling myself to no-man's land.  From my perspective, you need up up the fat and reduce the carbs.  I never exceed 1 cup of veggies at any sitting.  And veggies like steamed spinach, which is very reduced from its original form, I only eat 1/2 cup at a time.  

thegoldengrahamgirl  I know you said MFP was a really really bad thing for you.  But I would encourage you to log your food FOR A FEW DAYS.  Because when I did this, I was SHOCKED at how many carbohydrates I was eating while consciously thinking I was cutting carbs way down.  I had the same experience when counting my protein.  If keto is your intention, keto REALLY is moderate protein.  Do the calculation to find your personal protein range, and figure out what meals allow you to stick with that.  Same with your veggies and hidden carbs in fat (like avocados and coconut cream).  THEN STOP COUNTING.  

We're here for you, and if this is what you want, I have no doubt we can get you to a good place! 

[Brewer5]

And if it's not what you want -- maybe not so much fat. You gotta go one way or the other, if you feel like you are really puffing up.

[SimpleNotEasy]

I think this is what it comes down to. If we want to eat for ketosis, then we must go way down on carbs & make sure protein is moderate. 1g protein per kilo of body mass seems to be what's recommended. Some say .6/kilo (Dr Rosedale), some say 1.5-2g/kilo (Stephen Phinney). So around 1 seems about right.

OR we can eat W30 style, which is lower carb than the SAD, but not as low as Keto and thus not as high fat.

It's one or the other - they aren't the same. Good distinction.

[JessRN]

To further belabor my point, below is a pic of what seems like a VERY reasonable keto meal I had yesterday.  It was high in fat, moderate in protein, and kept me full for hours.  It was also dairy free.  HOWEVER- I plugged it into MFP out of curiosity today and was shocked to find that I'd logged 14g of carbohydrates for one meal just between the cup of broccholi and 1/4 of one avocado.  For keto, they say start at 20g of carbohydrates a day and see what your tolerance is.  This meal is on a salad plate mind you, it's not a ton of food.  But I wanted to show it to you thegoldengrahamgirl   to hopefully help clarify things.  I hope it helps.  Pics below.  In the MFP screen grab of the foods, it looks like a whole avocado is logged, but I promise the serving size is 1/4

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

Thanks everyone for the tips.  I knew the pistachio wasn't a good choice.  I was surprised on the coconut cream.  I double-checked my can and a 50mL serving is 15g fat and <2g carbs (AYAM brand).

 

I likely did have too much broccoli last night for keto, and too much shredded cabbage at breakfast this morning (for keto).

 

I AM at that fork in the road.  I need to either back off the carbs (I don't think I'd ever get as low as 20) OR keep with the same or slightly higher carb intake and back off the fat.

 

I don't think I'd be shocked.  A "regular" day of carbs is about 100g total; 60-70g net (WAY too much for keto).  A day with no fruit and no starchy carbs would put me around 60g total - I'd have to remove nuts and avocado to get down to about 40-50g total (probably 20-30g net).  Which I *could* do.  But with no blood or breath monitor and the desire to stay pretty active in the gym for now, I think I'll likely go the Whole30 route for the next few months.  But I'll keep checking in here and I know I can count on you guys & gals for any keto experimentation I do in the future.

 

Thanks!

 

-Lauren (GGG)

 

My satiety is definitely WAY up with this amount of fat, though. 

[Brewer5]

littleg -- I meant to say I also ordered some of their raw organic cacao butter.

 

 

Ummmmmm.... cross between unscented candle wax and unflavored chewing gum.  

[Brewer5]

This is a huge deal for me.

 

[Brewer5]

No.  I had a few tbsp. of coconut cream at 8pm (dinner, as I call my last meal of the day, was around 6:45pm).  More fat, fat, FAT needed!

 

Lauren, I'm sorry -- I misunderstood this and thought you were talking about coconut butter (like my coconut manna post).  THAT would have 9 carbs in 3 tablespoons.

 

I have never eaten "coconut cream" -- so it has not been on my radar.

[JessRN]

Look at YOU, badass!!!!!!  

[thegoldengrahamgirl]

...When I first "went Paleo" -- I did not understand these things....  I just felt so free that calories no longer "mattered" (right   ) and what I was eating was a fairly high-carb AND high-fat Paleo diet.  Guess what?  I gained fat.

 

I think maybe you need to make a choice, because otherwise you are putting yourself in that no-man's land we've talked about.

Good news, Brewer!  Thanks to your advice and your willingness to share your experiences, you've got me pointed a Paleo path that is much lower in carbs, nuts, seeds, and fruit than it otherwise would have been.  And you've helped me to save myself from "Paleo" baked goods.  My current path is NOT keto, for the time being.  I'll see what that does for mood as I increase carbs slightly, and for satiety and body composition as I decrease fat slightly. 

 

And if it's not what you want -- maybe not so much fat. You gotta go one way or the other, if you feel like you are really puffing up.

Path chosen for now.

 

Ummmmmm.... cross between unscented candle wax and unflavored chewing gum.  

Lol agreed!  I tried some for the first time.  NOT pleasant on its own.  My son wants to make homemade white chocolate, so we'll do it and then give it away as gifts.  I promise not to sample.  No need for me to go there!

 

Way to go on the steps, Brewer!  If I switch to running to get away from the mirrors, it will also help with my step count for the 2016 in 2016!  I'm also thinking outdoor Crossfit style workouts can help.  I discovered some triceps dips bars and some "monkey" bars outside my gym that will be perfect.

[kirkor]

HOWEVER- I plugged it into MFP out of curiosity today and was shocked to find that I'd logged 14g of carbohydrates for one meal just between the cup of broccholi and 1/4 of one avocado.  For keto, they say start at 20g of carbohydrates a day and see what your tolerance is.

A lot of people say that the 20g can be net carbs though, in which case the avocado doesn't have as much of an impact. That meal's only 6g net.

Keeping to 20g total carbs would be for a "we want zeeeeero doubt about entering ketosis"

[Brewer5]

Thanks everyone for the tips.  I knew the pistachio wasn't a good choice.  I was surprised on the coconut cream.  I double-checked my can and a 50mL serving is 15g fat and <2g carbs (AYAM brand).

 

I likely did have too much broccoli last night for keto, and too much shredded cabbage at breakfast this morning (for keto).

 

I AM at that fork in the road.  I need to either back off the carbs (I don't think I'd ever get as low as 20) OR keep with the same or slightly higher carb intake and back off the fat.

 

I don't think I'd be shocked.  A "regular" day of carbs is about 100g total; 60-70g net (WAY too much for keto).  A day with no fruit and no starchy carbs would put me around 60g total - I'd have to remove nuts and avocado to get down to about 40-50g total (probably 20-30g net).  Which I *could* do.  But with no blood or breath monitor and the desire to stay pretty active in the gym for now, I think I'll likely go the Whole30 route for the next few months.  But I'll keep checking in here and I know I can count on you guys & gals for any keto experimentation I do in the future.

 

Thanks!

 

-Lauren (GGG)

 

My satiety is definitely WAY up with this amount of fat, though. 

 

A few thoughts here:

 

1)  You can eat "keto" and also "Whole 30" -- that's why we are all still here.  The fruit on this program is optional, as are the nuts and seeds.  The starchy vegetables are optional, but recommended a lot on the forums, as we all know.  The protein & fat recommendations on the template are ~guidelines~ which we are all supposed to tailor to our own specific needs.  

 

2)  Your satiety is WAY up because it should be.  That is a great sign.  You can see how much better your body feels.  I kept up with what I was doing (Paleo) because I felt. so. much. better.  It started out as me wanting to get leaner...  it morphed into me wanting to feel good.  It became a whole new thing.  Honestly, the goal to be leaner is not a great one to follow.  It just isn't.  Get healthy -- get your body figured out -- let the fat drop naturally to a place where your body feels comfortable and is not stressed.

 

3)  I will say, once again, that when we start feeling the need to measure cabbage and broccoli...........  that is not a long-term solution.  Cabbage and broccoli are not really the problem foods.  Yes, you can consume a lot of carbs if you are eating pounds of them.  But you should be able to eat green veggies at every meal (and snack, if you wish) and not really give them much thought.

 

4)  We talk total carbs here ~ because Jimmy explains in the book how the net carb thing really doesn't work out.  If I went by net carbs, I could eat an entire pound of sacha inchi -- because they are 0 net carbs.  We all know this is not really the effect it would have on my body.

 

5)  A quote from Keto Clarity:  "So when we say "keep carbs low", the definition of "low" can vary.  I think it's safe to say that almost everyone who wants to be in ketosis needs to keep total carbohydrate intake below 100 grams a day, and the vast majority need to keep it under 50 grams a day."

 

So don't say goodbye to us just yet!  You are just starting to experiment with no fruit and no starchy carbs.  You may find your sweet spot soon.   You may also just need some patience.  

[SimpleNotEasy]

Great job on your steps consistency, Brewer! I had not seen that graphic before and went looking for it on my account. Mine looked good, too.  

 

I walked a lot today bc I went to the lake with a friend for a walk this morning, then my husband asked me to help him get more steps by doing a quick one before one of our boys' basketball games this afternoon. Maybe I will sleep better tonight... one of the next things on my lifestyle agenda is to work on sleep hygiene to seek to get a better night's sleep. Last night I only had 3 chunks of 1 hour where I was not restless. Ain't nobody got time for that!

[kirkor]

Maybe I will sleep better tonight... one of the next things on my lifestyle agenda is to work on sleep hygiene to seek to get a better night's sleep. Last night I only had 3 chunks of 1 hour where I was not restless. Ain't nobody got time for that!

In this year's Whole9 challenge (I can't recall if you're in that thread?) we're doing March as our month to focus on sleep. So maybe you can get a boost from that.